This is a conversation recorded in February 2021 - when the pandemic was still challenging the way we thought about communication and dying. Kathryn's book , " With the end in mind" was published and her second book "Listen" was about to be published. We have listened again in 2025 and ,as a prelude to a new recording, we felt that this had so many points still universally relevant that it was worth re-releasing. We hope you agree!