Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Molly Graham has worked for some of tech’s most effective leaders, including Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, Chamath Palihapitiya, and Bret Taylor. Today she leads Glue Club, a community for leaders navigating rapid scale, growth, and change. She’s best known for her “Give away your Legos” framework and her collection of practical mental models for leading through hypergrowth.We discuss:1. “Give away your Legos”: a framework for scaling yourself as a leader2. “J-curves vs. stairs”: the two paths of career growth, and why you should pick the scarier path3. “The waterline model” for diagnosing team problems (and why you should “snorkel before you scuba”)4. Six rules for creating effective goals (and aligning everyone around them)5. Rules of thumb for leading through rapid scale and change6. Her biggest leadership lessons from Mark Zuckerberg, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Sheryl Sandberg, and Bret Taylor—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchersBrex—The banking solution for startupsGoFundMe Giving Funds—Make helping a habit—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-high-growth-handbook-molly-graham—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/182877855/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Molly Graham:• X: https://x.com/molly_g• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham• Substack: https://mollyg.substack.com• Website: https://glueclub.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Molly Graham(04:28) Molly’s background at Google, Facebook, Quip, and CZI(11:29) The “Give away your Legos” framework(16:44) Managing your inner monster(19:49) When not to give away your Legos(21:28) Embracing a long career(23:25) The J-curve vs. stairs approach to career growth(32:00) The gift of knowing yourself(34:28) Learning to be a professional idiot(38:30) The waterline model: snorkel before you scuba(47:16) Six rules for creating strong alignment around goals(57:15) Rules of thumb for leading through rapid scale(01:07:49) Investing in high performers vs. low performers(01:10:54) Lessons from Zuckerberg, Sandberg, and Bret Taylor(1:21:15) Pivoting from ambition to purpose(1:26:32) Finding stability in instability(01:29:44) Final thoughts—Referenced:• Making an impact through authenticity and curiosity | Ami Vora (CPO at Faire, ex-WhatsApp, FB, IG): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/authenticity-and-curiosity-ami-vora• Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652• Elliot Schrage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliotschrage• Quip: https://quip.com• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• Chan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com• 10 contrarian leadership truths every leader needs to hear | Matt MacInnis (Rippling): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths• ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups• The Muppets: https://muppets.disney.com• Sara Caldwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saramcaldwell• J-Curves vs. Stairs: Two Approaches to Career Growth: https://mollyg.substack.com/p/j-curve• Forget the corporate ladder—winners take risks: https://www.ted.com/talks/molly_graham_forget_the_corporate_ladder_winners_take_risks• Chamath Palihapitiya on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chamath• Lori Goler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-goler-6b96921• Joseph Campbell’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192665-the-cave-you-fear-to-enter-holds-the-treasure-you• Zevi Arnovitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zev-arnovitz• Peopling 101: The Waterline Model: https://christinehaskell.com/blog/peopling-101-the-waterline-model• Introduction to NVC: https://www.cnvc.org/learn/what-is-nvc• I hate OKRs... and other thoughts about goal setting: https://mollyg.substack.com/p/i-hate-okrs-and-other-thoughts-about• Lessons from scaling Stripe | Claire Hughes Johnson (former COO of Stripe): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-stripe-tactics• James Clear’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9614600-problem-1-winners-and-losers-have-the-same-goals• Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Patrick Collison on X: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickcollison• John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision• Seth Godin’s best tactics for building remarkable products, strategies, brands and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/seth-godins-tactics-for-building-remarkable-products• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow—Recommended books:• The Artist’s Way: https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary/dp/0143129252• Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-People-Tactics-Management-Building/dp/1953953212• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Jason Lemkin is the founder of SaaStr, the world’s largest community for software founders, and a veteran SaaS investor who has deployed over $200 million into B2B startups. After his last salesperson quit, Jason made a radical decision: replace his entire go-to-market team with AI agents. What started as an experiment has transformed into a new operating model, where 20 AI agents managed by just 1.2 humans now do the work previously handled by a team of 10 SDRs and AEs. In this conversation, Jason shares his hands-on experience implementing AI to run his sales org, including what works, what doesn’t, and how the GTM landscape is quickly being transformed.We discuss:1. How AI is fundamentally changing the sales function2. Why most SDRs and BDRs will be “extinct” within a year3. What Jason is observing across his portfolio about AI adoption in GTM4. How to become “hyper-employable” in the age of AI5. The specific AI tools and tactics he’s using that have been working best6. Practical frameworks for integrating AI into your sales motion without losing what works7. Jason’s 2026 predictions on where SaaS and GTM are heading next—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchersVercel—Your collaborative AI assistant to design, iterate, and scale full-stack applications for the webDatadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/we-replaced-our-sales-team-with-20-ai-agents—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/182902716/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Jason Lemkin:• X: https://x.com/jasonlk• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonmlemkin• Website: https://www.saastr.com• Substack: https://substack.com/@cloud—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Jason Lemkin(04:36) What SaaStr does(07:13) AI’s impact on sales teams(10:11) How SaaStr's AI agents work and their performance(14:18) How go-to-market is changing in the AI era(19:19) The future of SDRs, BDRs, and AEs in sales(22:03) Why leadership roles are safe(23:43) How to be in the 20% who thrive in the AI sales future(28:40) Why you shouldn't build your own AI tools(30:10) Specific AI agents and their applications(36:40) Challenges and learnings in AI deployment(42:11) Making AI-generated emails good (not just acceptable)(47:31) When humans still beat AI in sales(52:39) An overview of SaaStr's org(53:50) The role of human oversight in AI operations(58:37) Advice for salespeople and founders in the AI era(01:05:40) Forward-deployed engineers(01:08:08) What's changing and what's staying the same in sales(01:16:21) Why AI is creating more work, not less(01:19:32) Why Jason says these are magical times(01:25:25) The "incognito mode test" for finding AI opportunities(01:27:19) The impact of AI on jobs(01:30:18) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org• SaaStr Annual: https://www.saastrannual.com• Delphi: https://www.delphi.ai/saastr/talk• Amelia Lerutte on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amelialerutte/• Vercel: https://vercel.com• What world-class GTM looks like in 2026 | Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (Vercel, Stripe, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-the-best-gtm-teams-do-differently• Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Replit: https://replit.com• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• ElevenLabs: https://elevenlabs.io• The exact AI playbook (using MCPs, custom GPTs, Granola) that saved ElevenLabs $100k+ and helps them ship daily | Luke Harries (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ai-marketing-stack• Bolt: https://bolt.new• Lovable: https://lovable.dev• Harvey: https://www.harvey.ai• Samsara: https://www.samsara.com/products/platform/ai-samsara-intelligence• UiPath: https://www.uipath.com• Denise Dresser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisedresser• Agentforce: https://www.salesforce.com/form/agentforce• SaaStr’s AI Agent Playbook: https://saastr.ai/agents• Brian Halligan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianhalligan• Brian Halligan’s AI: https://www.delphi.ai/minds/bhalligan• Sierra: https://sierra.ai• Fin: https://fin.ai• Deccan: https://www.deccan.ai• Artisan: https://www.artisan.co• Qualified: https://www.qualified.com• Claude: https://claude.ai• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com• Gamma: https://gamma.app• Sam Blond on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-blond-791026b• Brex: https://www.brex.com• Outreach: https://www.outreach.io• Gong: https://www.gong.io• Salesloft: https://www.salesloft.com• Mixmax: https://www.mixmax.com• “Sell the alpha, not the feature”: The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-enterprise-sales-playbook-1m-to-10m-arr• Clay: https://www.clay.com• Owner: https://www.owner.com• Momentum: https://www.momentum.io• Attention: https://www.attention.com• Granola: https://www.granola.ai• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com• Databricks: https://www.databricks.com• Garry Tan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrytan• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• The new AI growth playbook for 2026: How Lovable hit $200M ARR in one year | Elena Verna (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna• Pluribus on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/pluribus/umc.cmc.37axgovs2yozlyh3c2cmwzlza• Sora: https://openai.com/sora• Reve: https://app.reve.com• Everything That Breaks on the Way to $1B ARR, with Mailchimp Co-Founder Ben Chestnut: https://www.saastr.com/everything-that-breaks-on-the-way-to-1b-arr-with-mailchimp-co-founder-ben-chestnut/• The Revenue Playbook: Rippling’s Top 3 Growth Tactics at Scale, with Rippling CRO Matt Plank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3eYtzBpjRw• 10 contrarian leadership truths every leader needs to hear | Matt MacInnis (Rippling): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Matt MacInnis is the chief product officer and former longtime COO at Rippling, a unified workforce management platform valued at over $16 billion.We discuss:1. Why “extraordinary results demand extraordinary efforts”2. Why you should deliberately understaff projects, and how to know when you’ve gone too far3. Matt’s transition from COO to CPO and what surprised him about leading product4. The “high alpha, low beta” framework for evaluating people, processes, and products5. When founders should quit their startups (hint: much earlier than VCs want you to)6. How to fight entropy in your organization through relentless energy and intensity—Brought to you by:Google Gemini—Your everyday AI assistant: https://ai.dev/Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform: https://www.datadoghq.com/lennyGoFundMe Giving Funds—Make year-end giving easy: http://gofundme.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181916584/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Matt MacInnis:• X: https://x.com/stanine• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macinnis• Email: [email protected]—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Matt MacInnis and Rippling(04:38) The importance of extraordinary efforts(08:37) The challenges and rewards of relentless effort(10:11) Your job as a leader is to preserve intensity(12:39) You learn far more from success than failure(16:34) Transitioning to chief product officer(19:54) Fixing product management at Rippling(25:27) The “high alpha, low beta” framework(28:55) The PQL framework(35:16) Hiring frameworks and team dynamics(36:52) A helpful interview tactic(40:00) Leading as a COO vs. a CPO(42:34) The reality of product-market fit(46:38) The problem with venture capital(49:29) When founders should quit their startups(41:48) The immutable market(54:13) Lessons from Notion’s success(57:43) Investment strategies and narrative violations(01:00:42) The power of compounding, power law, and entropy(01:07:02) Maintaining intensity and fighting entropy(01:11:33) The importance of feedback and escalations(01:14:31) Rippling’s vision and success(01:17:48) AI’s impact on SaaS and business software(01:23:42) AI corner(01:26:23) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com• Sunil Raman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilraman• Dan Gill on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dangill• Carvana: https://www.carvana.com• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach• Parker Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/parkerconrad• Inkling: https://www.inkling.com• Akshay Kothari on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akothari• Notion: https://www.notion.com• Conway’s law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law• Seeking Alpha: https://seekingalpha.com• Dennis Rodman’s website: https://dennisrodman.com• Dancing pickle emoji: https://slackmojis.com/emojis/456-dancing_pickle• Pickle Rick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_Rick• SPOTAK: The Six Traits I Look for When I’m Hiring: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spotak-six-traits-look-m-181335267.html• Geoff Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geofflewis1• Zenefits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriNet_Zenefits• New banking records prove Deel paid thief who stole trade secrets from Rippling: https://www.rippling.com/blog/new-banking-records-prove-deel-paid-thief-who-stole-trade-secrets-from-rippling• Workday: https://www.workday.com• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com• Wall-E: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0910970• Conviction: https://www.conviction.com• Mike Vernal on X: https://x.com/mvernal• Sarah Guo on X: https://x.com/saranormous• No Priors: https://linktr.ee/nopriors• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com• Claude: https://claude.ai• Bryan Schreier on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanschreier• Heated Rivalry on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/heated-rivalry/50cd4e99-04ee-427b-a3b4-da721ed05d9c• Fellow coffee maker: https://fellowproducts.com/products/aiden-precision-coffee-maker—Recommended books:• Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space: https://www.amazon.com/Pale-Blue-Dot-Vision-Future/dp/0345376595• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557• The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting the Right Things Done: https://www.amazon.com/Effective-Executive-Definitive-Harperbusiness-Essentials/dp/0060833459—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Sander Schulhoff is an AI researcher specializing in AI security, prompt injection, and red teaming. He wrote the first comprehensive guide on prompt engineering and ran the first-ever prompt injection competition, working with top AI labs and companies. His dataset is now used by Fortune 500 companies to benchmark their AI systems security, he’s spent more time than anyone alive studying how attackers break AI systems, and what he’s found isn’t reassuring: the guardrails companies are buying don’t actually work, and we’ve been lucky we haven’t seen more harm so far, only because AI agents aren’t capable enough yet to do real damage.We discuss:1. The difference between jailbreaking and prompt injection attacks on AI systems2. Why AI guardrails don’t work3. Why we haven’t seen major AI security incidents yet (but soon will)4. Why AI browser agents are vulnerable to hidden attacks embedded in webpages5. The practical steps organizations should take instead of buying ineffective security tools6. Why solving this requires merging classical cybersecurity expertise with AI knowledge—Brought to you by:Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform: https://www.datadoghq.com/lennyMetronome—Monetization infrastructure for modern software companies: https://metronome.com/GoFundMe Giving Funds—Make year-end giving easy: http://gofundme.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-coming-ai-security-crisis—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181089452/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Sander Schulhoff:• X: https://x.com/sanderschulhoff• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sander-schulhoff• Website: https://sanderschulhoff.com• AI Red Teaming and AI Security Masterclass on Maven: https://bit.ly/44lLSbC—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Sander Schulhoff and AI security(05:14) Understanding AI vulnerabilities(11:42) Real-world examples of AI security breaches(17:55) The impact of intelligent agents(19:44) The rise of AI security solutions(21:09) Red teaming and guardrails(23:44) Adversarial robustness(27:52) Why guardrails fail(38:22) The lack of resources addressing this problem(44:44) Practical advice for addressing AI security(55:49) Why you shouldn’t spend your time on guardrails(59:06) Prompt injection and agentic systems(01:09:15) Education and awareness in AI security(01:11:47) Challenges and future directions in AI security(01:17:52) Companies that are doing this well(01:21:57) Final thoughts and recommendations—Referenced:• AI prompt engineering in 2025: What works and what doesn’t | Sander Schulhoff (Learn Prompting, HackAPrompt): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ai-prompt-engineering-in-2025-sander-schulhoff• The AI Security Industry is Bullshit: https://sanderschulhoff.substack.com/p/the-ai-security-industry-is-bullshit• The Prompt Report: Insights from the Most Comprehensive Study of Prompting Ever Done: https://learnprompting.org/blog/the_prompt_report?srsltid=AfmBOoo7CRNNCtavzhyLbCMxc0LDmkSUakJ4P8XBaITbE6GXL1i2SvA0• OpenAI: https://openai.com• Scale: https://scale.com• Hugging Face: https://huggingface.co• Ignore This Title and HackAPrompt: Exposing Systemic Vulnerabilities of LLMs through a Global Scale Prompt Hacking Competition: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Ignore-This-Title-and-HackAPrompt%3A-Exposing-of-LLMs-Schulhoff-Pinto/f3de6ea08e2464190673c0ec8f78e5ec1cd08642• Simon Willison’s Weblog: https://simonwillison.net• ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com• ServiceNow AI Agents Can Be Tricked Into Acting Against Each Other via Second-Order Prompts: https://thehackernews.com/2025/11/servicenow-ai-agents-can-be-tricked.html• Alex Komoroske on X: https://x.com/komorama• Twitter pranksters derail GPT-3 bot with newly discovered “prompt injection” hack: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/09/twitter-pranksters-derail-gpt-3-bot-with-newly-discovered-prompt-injection-hack• MathGPT: https://math-gpt.org• 2025 Las Vegas Cybertruck explosion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Las_Vegas_Cybertruck_explosion• Disrupting the first reported AI-orchestrated cyber espionage campaign: https://www.anthropic.com/news/disrupting-AI-espionage• Thinking like a gardener not a builder, organizing teams like slime mold, the adjacent possible, and other unconventional product advice | Alex Komoroske (Stripe, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unconventional-product-advice-alex-komoroske• Prompt Optimization and Evaluation for LLM Automated Red Teaming: https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.22133• MATS Research: https://substack.com/@matsresearch• CBRN: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBRN_defense• CaMeL offers a promising new direction for mitigating prompt injection attacks: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/11/camel• Trustible: https://trustible.ai• Repello: https://repello.ai• Do not write that jailbreak paper: https://javirando.com/blog/2024/jailbreaks—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Elena Verna is the head of growth at Lovable, the leading AI-powered app builder that hit $200 million in annual recurring revenue in under a year with just 100 employees. In this record fourth appearance on the podcast, Elena shares how the traditional growth playbook has been completely rewritten for AI companies. She explains why Lovable focuses on innovation over optimization, how they’ve shifted from activation to building new features, and why giving away their product for free has become their most powerful growth strategy.We discuss:1. Why 60% to 70% of traditional growth tactics no longer apply in AI2. Why you have to re-find product-market fit every 3 months3. The specific growth tactics driving Lovable’s unprecedented growth4. Why giving away product is a growth strategy that beats paid ads5. “Minimum lovable product” as the new standard (not minimum viable product)6. Why activation now belongs to product teams, not growth teams7. Whether you should join an AI startup (honest tradeoffs)—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsVercel—Your collaborative AI assistant to design, iterate, and scale full-stack applications for the webPersona—A global leader in digital identity verification—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181207556/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠—Where to find Elena Verna:• X: https://x.com/elenaverna• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna• Newsletter: https://www.elenaverna.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Elena Verna(05:19) The scale and growth of Lovable(08:55) Confidence in Lovable as a business(12:17) Retention at Lovable(15:02) Lovable’s unique growth levers(28:13) The role of marketing in Lovable’s success(38:09) Launching new features(40:59) Hiring and team dynamics(43:17) The value of vibe coding(49:46) The importance of community(51:47) Giving away your product for free(56:26) Tripling their company size(01:00:23) Product-market-fit challenges(01:08:50) Advice for joining AI companies(01:12:00) Work-life balance(01:15:20) What it’s like to work at Lovable(01:19:45) Women in tech(01:25:29) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led• 10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna• Lovable: https://lovable.dev• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Stripe: https://stripe.com• What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing• How to win in the AI era: Ship a feature every week, embrace technical debt, ruthlessly cut scope, and create magic your competitors can’t copy | Gaurav Misra (CEO and co-founder of Captions): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-win-in-the-ai-era-gaurav-misra• “Dumbest idea I’ve heard” to $100M ARR: Inside the rise of Gamma | Grant Lee (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn• Eric Ries on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries• Elena’s post on LinkedIn about Lovable Missions: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_everythingispossible-lovableway-activity-7401627519646474242-hn6e• SheBuilds: https://shebuilds.lovable.app• Shopify + Lovable: https://lovable.dev/shopify• The Product-Market Fit Treadmill: Why every AI company is sprinting just to stay in place: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/the-product-market-fit-treadmill• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba• The adjacent user: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user• Granola: https://www.granola.ai• Wispr Flow: https://wisprflow.ai• I’m worried about women in tech: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/im-worried-about-women-in-tech• Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com