Faithful Politics

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How did Christian music become one of the most powerful forces shaping evangelical identity and politics? 

Leah Payne, professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You, joins Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram to explain why contemporary Christian music is more than a soundtrack. It is a business, a discipleship tool, and a form of cultural power. Payne traces CCM from Pentecostal and revivalist roots to Billy Graham, the Jesus Movement, Amy Grant, DC Talk, purity culture, worship music, and even January 6. 

She argues that music often forms people more deeply than doctrine because it teaches Christians what to fear, what to defend, what feels sacred, and who belongs. This conversation helps listeners see how evangelical politics was shaped not only by sermons, denominations, and elections, but by songs, celebrities, markets, mothers, youth culture, and worship.

Guest Bio
Leah Payne, PhD, is professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and faculty lead for the Doctor of Ministry in Faith & Cultural Engagement program. Her work focuses on American religion, evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, popular culture, music, media, gender, and politics. She is the author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music, published by Oxford University Press, and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange podcast about Christian rock and its listeners. In this conversation, Payne helps explain how CCM, worship music, Christian celebrity, purity culture, and evangelical media shaped American religious identity and political life.

Book Mentioned
God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780197555248

Relevant Links & Resources
Leah Payne
URL: https://www.drleahpayne.com/
Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091
Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/
Support the show
Keep the conversation going.
Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?
Visit our website:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Browse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstore
Support the show and help us keep these conversations going:
patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPolitics
Subscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:
faithfulpolitics.substack.com
Contact the hosts:
Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.com
Will Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.com
Follow Faithful Politics:
Instagram: faithful_politics
Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
How did “biblical manhood” become so tied to aggression, politics, and power? 

Kristin Kobes Du Mez, professor of history at Calvin University and author of Jesus and John Wayne, joins Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram to explain how white evangelical ideas about masculinity helped shape American Christianity and American politics. Du Mez traces the rise of rugged Christian manhood through culture, Cold War politics, the Religious Right, Ronald Reagan, fear of feminism and secularism, anti-Muslim rhetoric, and the culture war machinery that turns complicated issues into loyalty tests. 

She also connects masculine power to institutional self-protection, including the Southern Baptist Convention’s response to women in leadership and sexual abuse reform. This conversation is not just about men. It is about how gender, theology, fear, capitalism, and political power worked together to shape modern white evangelicalism, and why America’s 250th raises urgent questions about religious liberty and democracy.

Guest Bio
Kristin Kobes Du Mez, PhD, is a historian, New York Times bestselling author, and professor of history at Calvin University. Her work focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, politics, and American evangelicalism. She is the author of Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation, A New Gospel for Women, and the forthcoming Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made. She is also a Senior Democracy Fellow with PRRI. In this conversation, Du Mez helps explain how white evangelical ideas about masculinity, femininity, fear, family, politics, and power shaped the modern church and the country around it.

Book Mentioned
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9781631499050

Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9781324090977

Relevant Links & Resources
Kristin Kobes Du Mez Official Website
URL: https://kristindumez.com/
Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091
Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/
Support the show
Keep the conversation going.
Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?
Visit our website:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Browse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstore
Support the show and help us keep these conversations going:
patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPolitics
Subscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:
faithfulpolitics.substack.com
Contact the hosts:
Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.com
Will Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.com
Follow Faithful Politics:
Instagram: faithful_politics
Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Can America tell its religious history honestly without confronting race? 

Jemar Tisby, historian, public scholar, author, and founder of Tisby Media, joins Will Wright for Church and State 250 to explain why race does not “enter” the American story later. It has been there from the beginning. Tisby connects the Declaration of Independence, the Three-Fifths Compromise, slavery, voting rights, segregation, the Black Church, and white Christian nationalism to show how Christianity has been used both to defend racial hierarchy and resist it. 

He explains how churches labeled slavery and race “political” when doing so protected money and power, while still speaking freely on other moral issues. The conversation also highlights how enslaved people heard a liberating gospel despite distorted biblical teaching, and why America’s 250th should be a moment to reclaim patriotism, defend democracy, and work toward a more perfect union.

Guest Bio
Jemar Tisby, PhD, is a historian, New York Times bestselling author, public scholar, and founder and creative director of Tisby Media. His work focuses on race, religion, American history, democracy, and justice. He is the author of The Color of Compromise, How to Fight Racism, and The Spirit of Justice, along with several books for younger readers. He is also the executive producer of Jesus Was a Migrant, a documentary from Tisby Studios. In this conversation, Tisby helps explain how race and religion have been intertwined from America’s founding through slavery, segregation, voting rights, the Black Church, white Christian nationalism, and the ongoing fight for democracy.

Book Mentioned
The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism by Jemar Tisby
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780310113607

How to Fight Racism: Courageous Christianity and the Journey Toward Racial Justice by Jemar Tisby
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780310154358

The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance by Jemar Tisby
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780310144854

Relevant Links & Resources
Jemar Tisby Official Website
URL: https://jemartisby.com/

Jesus Was a Migrant
URL: https://jesuswasamigrant.com/
Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091
Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/
Support the show
Keep the conversation going.
Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?
Visit our website:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Browse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstore
Support the show and help us keep these conversations going:
patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPolitics
Subscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:
faithfulpolitics.substack.com
Contact the hosts:
Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.com
Will Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.com
Follow Faithful Politics:
Instagram: faithful_politics
Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
What happens when religious freedom becomes a legal tool for imposing religion on others? 

Andrew L. Seidel, constitutional attorney, author, and Vice President of Strategic Communications at Americans United for Separation of Church and State, joins Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram to explain how church-state law has shaped American public life. Seidel walks through the Establishment Clause, the Free Exercise Clause, Article VI’s ban on religious tests, and major Supreme Court cases including Everson, Brown v. Board, Lemon v. Kurtzman, Kennedy v. Bremerton, and Carson v. Makin. 

He argues that separation of church and state is larger than one clause in the First Amendment. It is woven through the Constitution’s structure and protects people of every faith and no faith. The conversation also explores public schools, vouchers, Christian nationalism, Leonard Leo’s influence on the courts, and why America’s 250th is a moment to defend religious liberty for everyone.

Guest Bio
Andrew L. Seidel is a constitutional and civil rights attorney, author, and Vice President of Strategic Communications at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. His work focuses on religious freedom, church-state separation, Christian nationalism, and the way constitutional law affects public life. He is the author of The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American and American Crusade: How the Supreme Court Is Weaponizing Religious Freedom, and co-editor of Law and Religion: Cases and Materials. His legal and public writing helps explain how First Amendment law, religious liberty claims, public schools, and Supreme Court doctrine shape the rights of believers and nonbelievers alike.

Book Mentioned
American Crusade: How the Supreme Court Is Weaponizing Religious Freedom by Andrew L. Seidel
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9781454943921

Relevant Links & Resources
Americans United for Separation of Church and State - Andrew L. Seidel
URL: https://www.au.org/about-au/people/andrew-l-seidel/
Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091
Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/
Support the show
Keep the conversation going.
Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?
Visit our website:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Browse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstore
Support the show and help us keep these conversations going:
patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPolitics
Subscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:
faithfulpolitics.substack.com
Contact the hosts:
Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.com
Will Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.com
Follow Faithful Politics:
Instagram: faithful_politics
Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Could enslaved Africans become Christians, and if they did, should baptism lead to freedom? 

Katharine Gerbner, Associate Professor of History and Director of Religious Studies at the University of Minnesota, joins Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram to explain how religion shaped slavery and race in the Protestant Atlantic world. Gerbner’s book, Christian Slavery, examines a tension many Americans rarely consider: early Protestant slaveholders often treated Christianity as a marker of freedom, while missionaries wanted to convert enslaved people without disrupting slavery. 

That conflict helped produce what Gerbner calls “Protestant supremacy,” a religious framework that came before the legal solidification of whiteness and helped justify slavery through religious difference. The conversation moves through Quakers in Barbados, baptism, Catholic and Protestant slave systems, enslaved Christians, and theologies used to defend bondage. It is a hard but necessary look at how Christian language could be used both to seek freedom and to preserve power.

Guest Bio
Katharine Gerbner is Associate Professor of History and Director of the Religious Studies Program at the University of Minnesota. Her work examines how religion shapes, and is shaped by, race, freedom, politics, and technology. She is the author of Christian Slavery: Conversion and Race in the Protestant Atlantic World, which argues that religion was central to the development of both slavery and race in the Protestant Atlantic world, and Archival Irruptions: Constructing Religion and Criminalizing Obeah in Eighteenth-Century Jamaica. Her scholarship connects directly to this episode’s focus on Christian slavery, Protestant supremacy, baptism, enslaved Christians, and the religious arguments used to justify or challenge slavery.

Book Mentioned
Christian Slavery: Conversion and Race in the Protestant Atlantic World by Katharine Gerbner
Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780812224368

Relevant Links & Resources
Katharine Gerbner Faculty Profile
URL: https://cla.umn.edu/about/directory/profile/kgerbner
Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091
Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/
Support the show
Keep the conversation going.
Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?
Visit our website:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com
Browse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:
faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstore
Support the show and help us keep these conversations going:
patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPolitics
Subscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:
faithfulpolitics.substack.com
Contact the hosts:
Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.com
Will Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.com
Follow Faithful Politics:
Instagram: faithful_politics
Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast