With and For hosted by Dr. Pam King

We often think of sacred texts like the Bible as being rigid, set in stone. But actually they’re really nuanced and complex, and crucially, they allow us to bring our own complexity. Dr. Janette H. Ok is a New Testament professor at Fuller Seminary. She empowers her students to embrace their unique perspectives and backgrounds, and use those as powerful tools in biblical reflection. In this conversation, Janette also explains how wisdom isn’t something you master, but a way of living you can cultivate. And she shares a practice for how we can go beyond quick Biblical memes, and dive deep into what might transform us.

Links and resources:

About Janette

About Saint Augustine of Hippo

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.

Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter

Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Pádraig Ó Tuama is an Irish poet, theologian and host of the On Being podcast, Poetry Unbound. Belonging, identity and reconciliation are at the heart of his work. Growing up bilingual, speaking both English and Irish, showed Pádraig that there are multiple ways to say things, and multiple ways to look at things.  As a young gay man, Pádraig was subjected to abusive conversion practices, and it was his yearning for a better language to understand God and himself that led him to poetry and conflict mediation.  Pádraig shows us both the brutality and the beauty of language, how words can destroy or nourish, and choosing which words to use is a power worth cultivating. 

You’ll learn how to balance fear and courage, and why you should approach conflicts in your life by admitting what you don’t know. Padraig also shares a journaling practice to draw out your own poetic voice. 

Links and resources


About Pádraig 


Poetry Unbound


Pádraig’s memoir In the Shelter: Finding a Home in the World


Pádraig also read The Exorcist and Oh What A Marvel it Appeared to Me from his 2023 collection Feed the Beast


His latest collection is Kitchen Hymns

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Dr. Richard M. Lerner is a revolutionary force in the field of psychology, which had previously focused on what goes wrong with people. Richard’s relentlessly optimistic vision focuses on what can go right with people, how they can change and grow. 

In this special conversation, Pam sits down with her mentor – someone who’s had an influential impact on her career and research, to discuss thriving, relationships, spirituality and transcendence. 

Richard is the Bergstrom Chair in Applied Developmental Science, and the Director of the Institute for Applied Research in Youth Development at Tufts University. 

Links and resources:

About Richard’s work

Richard speaks at the Vatican

Richard’s books

What makes young people thrive

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For:

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Spiritual practices can improve your physical and emotional health – but that doesn’t mean spirituality is a wellness hack. David DeSteno’s groundbreaking work explores how religious rituals like prayer and chanting are so beneficial as powerful psychological tools. But what happens if you take these rituals outside of their community context? David can speak to both sides of the equation: the science behind faith, and the mystery of the sacred. 

 David DeSteno is a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, where he directs the Social Emotions Lab – exploring the effects of emotions like gratitude and compassion. His latest book is called How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion, and he hosts a podcast of the same name. 

About David’s work:

David’s website

How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion - 2021 book

How God Works podcast 

Social Emotions Lab

David referenced: 

Michael Pollen

Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research 

Rabbi Shira Stutman 

Rabbi Angela Buchdahl

Rev. Alex Leach’s Burning Man camp

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Many of us reach our 40s and have a wake-up call: a major event that shifts our perspective on what matters in life. Chip Conley had the most dramatic wake-up call ever: a near-death experience. Chip was giving a speech on stage when he died – literally. The experience would set off a chain reaction of events that changed the course of his life.

Chip is a renowned entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker known for his pioneering approach to innovation, leadership, and hospitality. He founded the country’s second-largest operator of boutique hotels, then led a travel revolution at Airbnb. But it was his brush with death that spurred him to launch the Modern Elder Academy, a series of workshops and programs that help folks reframe their relationship with aging. 

In this episode, we talk about navigating transitions, cultivating purpose, and owning wisdom, and Chip shares a practice for tapping into your own wisdom. 

Links and resources:

The Modern Elder Academy

The Anatomy of a Transition - free ebook

MEA on Facebook

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.