Conversations

Former Detective Sergeant, Deb Wallace on policing the heroin hotspot of Cabramatta in the 1990s and how Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' gave her new ideas for clamping down on illegal gang activity.
When Deb joined the NSW Police Force in 1983, there were very few women on the front line. 
She quickly discovered she had the cool-headed resilience ideal for police work, and she was determined to make a career of it.
In the mid-1990s Deb was a junior Detective when she was given a tough assignment — breaking up the gangs who ruled the streets of the Sydney suburb of Cabramatta.
At the time, Cabramatta was a vibrant place full of migrant families trying to carve out a new life in Australia, but crime was surging, and the train station was the centre of a thriving heroin trade.
After reading Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", Deb met up with the gang members in person to ask them about their lives. 
They told her that they were lost to the world crime, but she should focus on the next generation, so she helped set up a street school with Father Chris Riley.
Some years later Deb was given a new challenge — leading Strike Force Raptor, a squad charged with breaking up bikie gangs. 
Deb retired after 36 years on the force and now volunteers at Grace’s Place, a site of healing and restoration for young people affected by homicide.
Further information
Originally broadcast May 2023.
Read more about Graces's Place.
Michael Murphy, one of the men convicted for the murder of Anita Cobby, died from cancer at Long Bay Jail in 2019.
This episode was produced by Nicola Harrison. The Executive Producer was Carmel Rooney.
It explores gang violence, drugs, toxic masculinity, Vietnamese community, improving the next generation, street school, bikies, outlaw motorcycle gangs, culottes, female cop, bar brawls, DV, domestic violence, happy childhood, legislation, cops, Anita Cobby, murder, how policing has changed, beat, partner, colleague.
To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Mark Woodland is an unexpected CEO — he started his career in the Army as a tribute to his late brother, then went on to revolutionise his mum's paper-based childcare company.
As a young man Mark Woodland was at a loss with what to do with his life.
After years of moving around, the family — headed by Mark's single mum — settled in Ipswich, Queensland, where Mark showed himself to be a playful and enthusiastic boy, but school wasn't his first priority. 
When he graduated, Mark was most interested in driving around with his friends, playing music loudly with the windows down. 
When he needed money to fill the tank, Mark found a job at McDonald's.
His younger brother was a new recruit to the Army when he was killed in a  car accident. Ben was just 18.
Mark decided to honour his brother by keeping Ben's wish alive, and so Mark joined the army, and served for 10 years.
He left to help his mum run her childcare business, and Mark revolutionised the business' administrative system, moving from paper to a digital world.
Today Mark is the founder and CEO of tech healthcare company Kismet.
Further information
Read more about the short film, Versa.
This episode was produced by Meggie Morris. The Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.
It covers infant loss, NDIS, digitisation, childcare subsidy, daycare, family business, Army, Navy, not giving up, not quitting, car accident, morgue, Ipswich, Brisbane, Puckapunyal, Albury-Wodonga.
To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Mary Li was a star ballerina when she fell in love with her dance partner Li Cunxin.  When their daughter Sophie was born profoundly deaf, Mary walked away from dance for many years.
Mary says she was the least likely girl to grow up to be a ballerina,
She grew up in a family of eight kids in the rough and tumble of the Queensland country town of Rockhampton.
But in a little timber hall, with cattle trains rolling by outside, Mary discovered a talent for dance.
That talent, and a huge amount of hard work and family support took her to the Royal Ballet School in London at sixteen.
She then became the principal dancer with the London Festival Ballet, then the Houston ballet.
There in Houston Mary fell in love with her dance partner Li Cunxin.
Li had also come a long way from his home in rural China, defecting to the U.S. as an adult and then becoming an internationally celebrated dancer.
In Houston Li and Mary married and had their first child, a beautiful daughter named Sophie.
But when Sophie was 16 months old their lives were turned upside down.
This episode was first broadcast in 2020
Further information
Mary's Last Dance is published by Penguin

After a catastrophic car crash in the parking lot of her hospital, Dr Olivia Ong became a paraplegic. But her obsession with learning how to walk again was stronger than her incomplete spinal cord injury.
When Olivia Ong was 28 years old, she had the world at her feet.
She had recently qualified as a doctor, something she had dreamed of since she was a child growing up in Malaysia.
She had married a man she loved deeply, and they were busy building their future together.
Then, everything changed after a car crashed into her in the parking lot of the hospital she worked in.
Olivia now refers to herself as a 'walking paraplegic'.
She spent years working hard to walk again, using simple exercise therapies she discovered in the United States.
Back On My Feet: From Doctor to Patient is published by HarperCollins.
This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.
It explores medicine, university, love, faith, spinal cord injuries, paraplegia, car crashes, from doctor to patient, marriage, love, motherhood, pain specialist, rehab specialist, California, Project Walk, exercise therapy, surgery, wheelchair user, people living with disability, parenting with disability, accessibility.
To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Lynne Shori grew up with her hero dad, thinking her Papua New Guinean mother was dead. As an adult, she discovered the truth and set about finding her lost family.
When Lynne was growing up, it was just her and her dad.
Lynne's dad was her hero; he was different and adventurous but she always felt safe with him when they went on hair-raising adventures together in the Highlands of Papua New Guinea.
He had always told Lynne that her mum had died in childbirth.
But when she became an adult, Lynne discovered this wasn't true.
Just as she turned 40, Lynne set off to a remote island in northern Papua New Guinea to discover the truth of her family story.
Once she started gathering all the answers to her lifelong questions, Lynne and her father then set about healing their own, very special relationship.
Find out more about Wantaim PNG, and the work they're doing across remote Papua New Guinea, online.
This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.
It explores the Pacific, Pasifika, family origin stories, Stolen Generations, charity work, tok Pisin, Manus Island, father daughter relationships, mixed race children, Australia's relationship with PNG, sanitation, education, discovering your truth, mental health, mother daughter relationship, Melanesian culture, family, siblings, blended families, Oceania, geopolitics, knowing your parents, therapy, estrangement, reunion, forgiveness, grief, identity, Sydney, finance, mid-life crisis, rehab, sense of community, family secrets.
To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.