Continuum Audio

Sleep plays a critical role in brain development, learning, memory, and behavior throughout childhood and adolescence. In this episode, Dr. Kristin Seaborg discusses how sleep architecture changes across development, the impact of sleep disorders on attention, headaches, epilepsy, and neurodevelopmental conditions, and why neurologists should routinely assess sleep in pediatric patients. Learn practical approaches to recognizing sleep problems, including obstructive sleep apnea and insomnia, and how improving sleep can enhance neurologic and cognitive outcomes.
In this episode, Casey S. Albin, MD, FAAN, speaks with Kristin Seaborg, MD, author of the article "Sleep in the Developing Brain" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue.
Dr. Albin is a Continuum® Audio interviewer, associate editor of media engagement, and an assistant professor of neurology and neurosurgery at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia.
Dr. Seaborg is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Neurology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison in Madison, Wisconsin.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Sleep in the Developing Brain
Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
@ContinuumAAN
Host: @caseyalbin
Guest: @KristinSeaborg
 Full episode transcript available here
Dr Albin: In neurology and life, we are all looking for the secret to being attentive, focused, and engaged, and we certainly want that for our children. And what if the answer to all of that was just in sleep? 
Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. 
Dr Albin: Hello, this is Dr. Casey Albin. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Kristin Seaborg about her article on sleep in the developing brain. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on the neurology of sleep. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Seaborg. Thank you so much for being here. I learned a lot from your article. Can you just briefly introduce yourself to the audience? 
Dr Seaborg: Sure. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. My name is Kristin Seaborg. I'm a pediatric neurologist and sleep neurologist at the University of Wisconsin Medicine. I also run the pediatric sleep neurology clinic at UW Madison. 
Dr Albin: That is the perfect person to be writing this article. And every time I read an article about pediatric neurology, I am just so struck that like little tiny humans are not small adults, that they actually have a totally different neurobiology. They are in different stages of development. And this was really a topic that I was not familiar with, and probably for most of our listeners, they're not familiar with as well. And so, I thought we'd maybe just start with some of the basics. What is going on in terms of like pediatric sleep architecture, and how is that different than the adult architecture that we might be m- more familiar with? 
Dr Seaborg: Sure. So, a lot of us think that sleep is the thing we do that when, when we're not doing other stuff. But actually, it's completely the opposite. During sleep, our brain is learning and consolidating memory and cleansing what's happened during the day, and that's especially important during infancy and early childhood development, and as a child gets older. If we take infants for an example, fifty percent of their sleep is in a precursor of REM sleep, which we call active sleep, which is much, much more than adults, as opposed to adults have about thirty percent of their sleep in REM sleep. And also, infants need sleep like fifteen to seventeen hours a day. Not all of that is consolidated in one continuous period. They usually sleep over the course of the day, fifteen to seventeen hours, and that sleep time decreases over the course of childhood and adolescence as well. 
Dr Albin: Yeah, it's amazing that there's so much more going on. As someone who's had newborns, it feels like, oh my gosh, they're really just sleeping all day. They're not doing anything. But they're doing quite a lot, and that really is so much work for their developing brain. And then one of the things that also really struck me about the article is that as children move from infancy through adolescence, not only is the sleep architecture changing, but the time they go to sleep, the amount of sleep they need, some of the pathology that they may develop, it changes throughout these early years of their life. And so maybe when we are thinking about what patients might come to the clinic with, I assume a lot of parents are kind of concerned like, "Is my child getting enough sleep? Are they sleeping the normal amount? Are they sleeping in the timeframe that would be normal?" Walk us through just in broad strokes, like what is a normal amount of sleep as you go through that pediatric developmental phase? 
Dr Seaborg: So that's not a one-sentence answer. And there's a table in the Continuum article. 
Dr Albin: Love that. 
Dr Seaborg: So, infants sleep like fifteen to seventeen hours, and it's chunked out over the course of the day. Usually they have one consolidated sleep period at night, but then two to three naps during the day. And as you move through early childhood, toddlers and adolescents usually need about fourteen hours of sleep around the time they're one year of age. As they get a little bit older, then they need like eleven to thirteen hours, depending on the child themselves. And then as we move toward like school age, like eight to ten hours of sleep is usually adequate, but especially younger school children need about ten hours of sleep at night. And then the interesting thing that happens in adolescence and early teenage years is that kids need just as much sleep, but they actually naturally fall asleep later because their melatonin is released later. So, it feels like they need to sleep all the time, but actually they just go to sleep later, and when school comes, it's not time or doesn't feel ready for them to wake up. So, adolescents and teens also need about eight to ten hours of sleep a night. 
Dr Albin: Right. And I just was struck, you know, we think about it in this article and these issues, we've thought a lot about, I think it'll come up in other podcasts, the importance of daylight savings time and how that actually really is not good for our brains. And I feel so much for these teenagers who are really at a disadvantage because we make them get up early to participate in the world when it's not really aligned with how their natural sleep cycle is, and it feels unfair. 
Dr Seaborg: It does. And there's so much to that. So, adolescents have school, and then a lot of time they have like after-school activities, whether that's sports or theater or music or whatever, but that usually happens after school. And then the reality of today's society is they come home, and at least my teenager disconnects or kind of decompresses by looking at her phone forever. And a lot of teenagers and adolescents bring their phone to bed. That exposure to light right up until the time when they want to go to sleep really can disrupt their circadian rhythm too. So they have the natural delayed circadian rhythm, and then they have these lifestyle exposures between activities after school and screens and everything else that really make sleep onset difficult. And so, waking up for school at 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning is really difficult for them. 
Dr Albin: Gosh, I feel for that. And I suspect that many patients are coming into the sleep clinic with that exact sort of like my early teen, my preteen, my teenager. They're just exhausted all the time, but they won't fall asleep. They're developing insomnia. It sounds like there's a lot of behavioral changes that need to go along with that. Is that what you're seeing? 
Dr Seaborg: Yeah. So, I'm also seeing an kind of a corollary, a lot of kids that come in with headaches because they're not sleeping enough, and they feel awful, or they're coming in with difficulty focusing in school or cognitive fog because they're not sleeping enough, and that they don't always know that that's the chief complaint. But often, as you start asking sleep-related questions, you figure out exactly what's going on. So, their amount they're sleeping and kind of their natural sleep cycle is affecting everything about their life. 
Dr Albin: Yeah. It just-- it really struck me that, you know, one of the things that you talk about in the article is that there is, in patients who have neurodevelopmental differences and disorders, they may specifically have some sleep impairment, and they have a neurobiological reason for those sleep changes. But also, like you're saying, sometimes these inattentions or what's diagnosed as ADHD is actually just because they are not sleeping well, and they can't focus. And I imagine that's really hard to tease out. Like, is there something when you're trying to tease that out in the clinic that helps you figure out, is it the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the dog? 
Dr Seaborg: Sure. 
Dr Albin: Which is coming first? Is it, is it really a neurobiology problem where they have nerve developmental disorders and therefore sleep problems, or they have sleep problems causing the symptoms of a nerve developmental disorder? 
Dr Seaborg: So, there's so many ways to answer that question. The very first part is you start at the beginning, not only asking the person's chief complaint, like, "Are you having trouble with attention?" But then also, uh, like I'll say, "Okay, what time do you go to sleep?" But not only that, "What are you doing before bedtime?" And then once they're asleep, are they snoring? Are they waking multiple times at night, you know, without trying to? And when they wake up in the morning, do they feel refreshed, or do they really still feel like they could fall asleep for a very, very long time? And then with regards to the neurodevelopmental disorders, it's fascinating. A lot of kids with neurodevelopmental disorders, whether that's ADHD or autism spectrum disorder or a genetic disorder that causes a developmental difference, often some of the pathophysiology of the actual neurodevelopmental difference also impacts the circadian rhythm and melatonin release and the brain's ability to initiate and maintain sleep. So, it's really important as a provider to be cognizant if you're seeing your patient with autism or ADHD to also ask about their sleep-related symptoms. And then eventually you'll ferret it out, but it takes a lot of sleuth work and investigation. 
Dr Albin: So, what I'm hearing is actually when people come in with a chief complaint that probably is not like, "Hey, I'm having trouble sleeping," but maybe, "I can't focus" or, "I have headaches," or I have other problems that are being referred to a neurologist or pediatric neurologist, it really does behoove us to pause and take a good sleep history on all children coming in. 
Dr Seaborg: Yes, and I'm gonna piggyback on that. Also, very, very important for our patients with epilepsy. There's a super high coincidence with epilepsy and sleep disorders, and there's actually been direct comparisons with children that-- typically developing children and children with epilepsy that's poorly controlled, and the amount of sleep-related complaints and sleep-related symptoms they have is astronomically higher. So, it's important as a neurologist to always have sleep kind of on our front burner, something we're paying attention to. 
Dr Albin: No, it's so true. You know, I learned a lot about pediatric sleep and epilepsy through the article, and I think that obviously we wanna refer the listeners to checking out a little bit more. But there were a couple of things that were new terms to me that maybe others are not familiar with, and it does relate to like they are epilepsy, but they are more nocturnal, and they have more nocturnal epilepsies that we might need to really think and consciously consider. So, the new terms for me were SeLECTS, which I assume is actually just said as SeLECTS, but stands for... You tell me, what does it stand for? 
Dr Seaborg: Self-limited epilepsy with central temporal spikes. 
Dr Albin: Perfect. So okay. So, let's just start with that. Like, what is going on there? What do I need to know about it? 
Dr Seaborg: So, SeLECTS was previously known as benign rolandic epilepsy 10 to 20 years ago, and then that, the term evolved to childhood epilepsy with central temporal spikes. But then it evolved again to SeLECTS, which is self-limited epilepsy with central temporal spikes. I think the primary motivation of changing the terminology, at least initially, was to acknowledge that even though this type of epilepsy occurs during childhood and it's self-limited, it is not benign always because seizures can cause some daytime dysfunction, and also there has been some association with ADHD-like symptoms or learning disability symptoms later in life. The other term you just mentioned, developmental epileptic encephalopathy with spike wave activation in sleep. That's a mouthful. That's the new terminology for what we used to call ESES or electrical status epilepticus of slow wave sleep. So, DEE-SWAS, developmental epileptic encephalopathy with spike wave activation in sleep is a broader term to encompass a bunch of epilepsy syndromes that have spike wave activation that during sleep, it is associated with developmental delay and per-perhaps developmental regression. 
Dr Albin: And is that typically seen early childhood infancy? Like, I think of that as being something that you're gonna encounter really early in the life cycle. Am I correct? 
Dr Seaborg: Not always. Sometimes, like school-aged children, one of the classic presentations is what it can be known as Landau-Kleffner syndrome, where you have spike wave activation during sleep in a, a school-aged child at like between the ages of six and 10, and then they have language regression, and you look at their EEG overnight and you see that they have epileptiform activity for up to 85 to 95% of the night. 
Dr Albin: Wow. So, I wanna drill down on this. Since both of these things may come up, and probably are not something that the family is coming to you and saying, "Hey, I've seen these bizarre things happen in sleep," but are coming with daytime symptoms, how is it that you decide who is going to need a pediatric sleep study? 
Dr Seaborg: Great question. So, if a child ever or a parent ever comes and complains or with concerns of developmental regression, and I guess I'm biased cause I'm a sleep doctor, but I would always do an EEG recording overnight if there were any concerns. And then if patients come and they just talk about rhythmic movements at night or waking up at night with some facial twitching, or the next day they're really acting tired, then I would order a sleep study. And of course, I would always ask the typical questions: Are they snoring? Are they waking up with a headache or not well refreshed? And ask a little bit more about a sleep history. But developmental regression and rhythmic movements at night definitely should be studied. 
Dr Albin: And those questions about, you know, snoring at night, waking up with a headache, you're trying to get to pediatric obstructive sleep apnea. Is that right? 
Dr Seaborg: Correct. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. 
Dr Albin: Yeah. No, I just wanna make sure, like, because obviously that is a very common problem in the adult patient population. How frequently are you encountering that now in pediatric land? 
Dr Seaborg: So actually, it's more common than you would think.  So kids have, especially kids that I'm seeing in the pediatric neurology clinic, sometimes have some different facial anatomy or enlarged tonsils or enlarged adenoids, or they have a primary genetic disorder that gives them a little bit different facial anatomy, and they're at much higher risk for obstructive sleep apnea. Kids with different muscle tone, whether they have cerebral palsy or a different kind of hypotonia disorder, are at very high risk of obstructive sleep apnea. And then kids with epilepsy, for reasons that we don't fully understand, are at higher risk for obstructive sleep apnea. So, it's actually quite common in children. We see it a lot. 
Dr Albin: Wow, that's fascinating. And then I wanna just in our little limited time together, there were two other sort of neurodevelopmental disorders that came up in the article and I think are at least worth previewing for the listeners. So, autism spectrum disorder, obviously a very large and a range of how patients can present, but sleep really does seem to be a manifestation. Walk us through the association there. 
Dr Seaborg: Sure. So, we don't know 100%, but I can give you a few statistics. For instance, 20 to 75% of kids with autism spectrum disorder have some sort of sleep onset or sleep maintenance insomnia or some primary sleep disorder, which is astronomically high. We all know the etiology of autism is multifactorial, and there's not just one gene or one difference that leads to autism, but there are a fair amount of genetic differences that sometimes can lead to a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. We've found there's kind of coincidence of some differences in some of the circadian genes. Specifically, time and clock are two of the circadian rhythm genes that have been shown to have higher incidence of differences in kids with autism spectrum disorder. And then kids with autism spectrum disorder also sometimes have some underlying anxiety or hyperactivity in it that also compounds their difficulty falling asleep and sometimes their difficulty staying asleep at night. And so, there's multiple things that are playing in that can make sleep difficult, which in turn can affect their daytime performance and their daytime regulation. So, lots going on there. 
Dr Albin: Absolutely. I mean, in reading this, I was struck by, oh gosh, there's a lot of both pharmacological and sort of behavioral therapy that has to go into like readjusting and, and setting normative patterns and expectations. It sounds like melatonin can, in some cases, be helpful here. 
Dr Seaborg: Yes, melatonin. So, I know there's a lot of patients will come to me, they're like, "I don't wanna use melatonin 'cause my Facebook group told me it was terrible." There's a lot of literature and a lot of recently published literature to show the safety and efficacy in low-dose melatonin, especially in children with neurodevelopmental disorders and specifically in kids with autism spectrum disorder. Melatonin is safe and okay to use. It's important to educate your patients though. So, a little bit works, and then a patient's kind of natural reaction is, "Oh, if a little bit is good, I'm just gonna give them more." But the more melatonin you give a person, actually the less their brain produces, and it's almost like a negative feedback. So, the studies support using two to five milligrams of melatonin one to two hours prior to bedtime to kind of stimulate melatonin release and then help with sleep onset. Melatonin does not help with sleep maintenance, but for the kids that are on the kind of neurodevelopmental disability or disorder spectrum, it really can help with sleep onset.
Dr Albin: Yeah. I was really fascinated to hear that there is some more evidence for the extended-release formula. And is that something that you can just go onto Amazon and get the extended release or is that prescription? 
Dr Seaborg: It's not prescription. You can 100% go onto Amazon and get the extended release. Immediate release melatonin will help with sleep onset, but then a lot of kids w- with brains that work differently wake up two to three hours later. The extended release can stick with you for a little bit longer. 
Dr Albin: Well, there you go. I always love the things that you're just like, "All you gotta do is get on Amazon and it'll come to your house the next day." We all love a quick fix like that. 
Dr Seaborg: Right. 
Dr Albin: The other topic that came up is obviously patients with ADHD and, like, how their sleep really can both impact how they are performing and some of their symptoms of inattention, and may also sort of compound, you know, or, or be a, um, manifestation of the fact that there is a neuro biologic difference. 
Dr Seaborg: Right. So, ADHD is an interesting kind of disorder, disability, or condition, um, because there's so many things that play into that. Sleep-related stuff, we've been residents before, and, you know, the longer that we're awake, actually the harder it is to focus and concentrate. Interesting, there have been some stereo EEG patients that they've shown that sleep is not the whole brain happening at once, but actually there are parts of the cortex that can ha- fall asleep in, like, micro-sleep or local sleep after prolonged periods of wakefulness even while you're awake. So, it can look like you're inattentive, but literally part of your cortex is falling asleep. So, these patients that have been awake for forever or had prolonged periods of wakefulness can look like they have inattention, but actually they're just sleeping poorly. I see this a lot in kids that have previously undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnea or previously undiagnosed periodic limb movement disorder. The parents come with a chief complaint of inattention or difficulty focusing, and then the sleep studies show that their sleep is very disrupted, and we treat OSA, and all those symptoms are better. Conversely, kids with ADHD, so the neurobiology of ADHD, the neurotransmitters that are implicated in ADHD that kind of regulate wakefulness are also different, so, like, norepinephrine and epinephrine and stuff like that. So, it makes falling asleep harder in kids with ADHD just because their genetic makeup and how kind of their brain and their biology is working. Insomnia is a common disorder in kids with attention deficit disorder. 
Dr Albin: Wow. It's just amazing how integral sleep is to just the whole function. I'm not surprised because we certainly feel that having been residents. We, I think we all, as doctors, acutely know how bad it feels when you do not sleep well. We are coming to the end of our time. A lot of these questions that I had posed for you we've actually kind of answered, but I did want to give everyone who's listening in, and maybe they're in the car or cooking dinner, you might not have heard the snippet. This is just rapid-fire questions that you may encounter in neurology clinic or pediatric neurology clinic. Quick answers. My child snores. Is that normal? 
Dr Seaborg: No. It's not normal, especially snoring and pausing. So, I, like, the guttural pauses. Never normal. That child should have a sleep study. 
Dr Albin: Perfect. The Facebook group said that melatonin is not safe. What do you think? 
Dr Seaborg: Low doses of s- melatonin are 100% safe and efficacy or efficacious, excuse me, in children. Um, but low doses. Two to five milligrams at the very most. If it's not working, use less. Don't add on more. 
Dr Albin: Love that. My teen is up till midnight. Why? 
Dr Seaborg: Unfortunately, your teen is normal, and their biologic clock is moved back as they approach adolescence, and their melatonin release is later. One thing you can do is make sure that the screens are out of the room two hours before bedtime, and that they have some downtime before bedtime. 
Dr Albin: And then finally, a sleep study, that seems very intense. Can my child have that? 
Dr Seaborg: Your child can 100% have a sleep study, especially the certified sleep centers are really good about dealing with kids that don't like all the sensors or the leads, and they can come in and readjust. I would highly recommend it. It's worth your time, especially cause it's a low-hanging fruit that we often can help. 
Dr Albin: Love that. All right. Again, I've been interviewing Dr. Kristin Seaborg about her article on sleep and the developing brain. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Circadian rhythms influence far more than sleep, affecting neurologic disease expression, treatment response, and overall health. In this episode, Dr. Sabra Abbott discusses common circadian rhythm disorders, the health consequences of circadian misalignment, and practical strategies for managing jet lag, shift work, and disrupted sleep-wake schedules. Learn how circadian biology can shape neurologic outcomes and why considering the timing of behaviors, light exposure, and treatments may improve patient care.
In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Sabra M. Abbott, MD, PhD, author of the article "Circadian Neurology" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue.
Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California, San Francisco in San Francisco, California.
Dr. Abbott is an Associate Professor of Neurology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, Illinois.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Circadian Neurology
Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
@ContinuumAAN
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Grouse: Circadian rhythm disruption affects many of our patients in far-reaching aspects of their general health and has likely personally affected most neurologists at some point in their career. Today, I have the opportunity to interview Dr. Sabra Abbott, who is the author of the latest issue of Continuum on Neurology of Sleep. 
Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. 
Dr Grouse: This is Dr. Katie Grouse. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Sabra Abbott about her article on circadian neurology. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. 
Dr Abbott: Thanks for having me. I'm Dr. Sabra Abbott. I'm an associate professor of neurology at Northwestern, and I'm also director of our circadian medicine clinic. 
Dr Grouse: It's really great to have you today. I definitely enjoyed reading your article, and not only did I learn a lot, but I feel like it's really applicable to a lot of topics that come up in clinic when I see patients. Now, I was wondering if you had to choose one key point that readers of your article would take away after reading it, what would it be? 
Dr Abbott: I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that time is an important variable in every single thing that we do. And so, it can impact when your patient's disease is at its best and at its worst, and then it also can impact when it's actually most appropriate to provide medications for your patients. There can be times where they may be more impactful and times where they may actually cause more harm for your patients. So, the short answer is think about time always with your patients. 
Dr Grouse: On that topic, I was really amazed to learn about the significant health risks associated with circadian misalignment, including even malignancy risks. Can you review some of these risks and why this might be the case? 
Dr Abbott: So, I think the risk that we have the most data for is the risk for cancer associated with circadian misalignment, and this comes from a lot of studies that we're looking at patients who are shift workers. The data has actually come back on two separate reviews indicating that shift work could be a probable carcinogen, and we think that that probably comes down to a lot of different factors. So, when you're a shift worker, you are often working in the middle of the night. You may be getting light exposure at a time when you're normally producing melatonin, and that may be one factor that is actually putting you at increased risk for cancer. 
Dr Grouse: And certainly, after reading this and hearing all of these things, I'm not surprised that many sleep specialists really dislike daylight savings time, which also is enough of a factor to potentially increase some of these health risks. Do you agree that daylight savings time is something that's contributing to poor health in our population? 
Dr Abbott: So, I think it is definitely something that almost all of us want to get rid of, and I think where everybody is in agreement is that we should get rid of these shifts in the spring and the fall. I think the only benefit to those shifts that I see is it does create a time where we start having conversations about your circadian clock, so people become aware of circadian timing twice a year when we have these shifts. Outside of that, that shift back and forth seems to be very problematic. So, we do see both in the fall and the spring an increased risk for car crashes, an increased risk for heart attacks, stroke. People perform worse at work, and so I think in general, we probably should get rid of it. There's a little bit of a debate as to whether we should go to permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time. I think most sleep and circadian scientists prefer permanent standard time. A lot of people who really like their evening activities prefer permanent daylight saving time, but I think that's also biased by the fact that daylight saving time, everybody has longer days, and I think they want longer days year-round, and you don't get that no matter which way you shift the clock in the winter. 
Dr Grouse: That's really interesting. I do see that debate pop up every, I guess twice every year, and I guess there is a silver lining that at least we are all talking about it and thinking about it. I wanted to take a step back about the topic of circadian rhythm disorders in general. Could you just really quickly, like twenty-thousand-foot view, summarize what these main circadian rhythm disorders are? 
Dr Abbott: So, at the moment, we primarily think of circadian rhythm disorders in the context of how they impact your sleep-wake timing. And so, at the largest level, we think of them as either intrinsic disorders, so disorders where your internal timing doesn't match up with the environment. The four key disorders there are advanced and delayed sleep wake phase disorders, so you're either earlier or later. You have non-twenty-four, where you actually generally get later and later each day, so it's like you're living on Mars. And then we have irregular, where you have multiple bouts of sleep that happen both night and day. And then the other two are the extrinsic disorders, so these are shift work disorders. So, you may have a normal functioning clock, but the external environment is forcing you to do things you wouldn't normally, or jet lag, where you again have a normal functioning clock, but then you end up having to shift multiple time zones faster than you can adapt to. Now, I think the interesting thing, and we can talk about this more if you want, is that we are moving into thinking of circadian rhythm disorders as being much more than just abnormalities of sleep-wake timing, and I think that's kind of where the future of the field goes. 
Dr Grouse: Tell me more about that. 
Dr Abbott: So, I think as the article gets into beyond just these kind of classically recognized disorders, we realize that circadian disruption can play a role in almost any other medical disorder that you can experience. And so, we can see circadian disruption as either a symptom or a potential cause of many other disorders. And then also in the optimal care of pretty much any patient, thinking about all of these other factors that they're experiencing on a day-to-day basis, whether it's their light exposure, whether it's the timing of their meals, whether it's the timing of their medications, all of those can play a role in their overall health and improving your ability to care for them. 
Dr Grouse: Now, I did find it really fascinating. This was not something that I had really been aware of prior to reading your article about the fact that it really can make a difference about when you time particular medications for particular types of neurologic conditions just related to the circadian rhythm. And really interesting was the epilepsy connection. Can you tell me about how that affects how we should be dosing anti-seizure medication? 
Dr Abbott: So, I think the epilepsy connection is an interesting one that definitely needs far more studies. So, at this point, a lot of this data is really coming from observational studies, looking at when patients have received medications and then how good their outcomes are. And in epilepsy, I think a lot of us tend to time anti-seizure medications so that patients get more of them in the evening and lower doses during the daytime. And I think a lot of this has been driven a little bit more by the fact that many of these medications are sedating, so we tend to put the more sedating medications at bedtime. But it turns out that outcomes in patients are actually better if they get higher doses at night and lower doses in the morning. Now, this is sort of theorizing at this point, but it could either be targets of these medications or your ability to uptake these medications across the blood-brain barrier may change with the time of day component. So, at this point, these are still really observational studies, but I think an area where we really need to do a lot more work. 
Dr Grouse: Well, I look forward to hearing more about other ways that we'll learn how best to manage our medications for circadian rhythm function. Now, I wanted to ask, which circadian rhythm disorder do you think is the hardest to treat, and why would that be the case? 
Dr Abbott: So, I'm gonna give you two answers to that. In terms of the primary circadian disorders that I see come through my clinic door, I would say cited non-24. These are patients who have normal vision, but they act as though they are living in a world without these external light time cues. And so, they, every single day, get a little bit later and a little bit later, and it's really, really hard to get them from a 25-hour schedule back onto a 24-hour schedule. The second part of my answer to that is shift work disorder, and those, I would say, are much more common patients to encounter. I think every single one of us, as we've gone through our medical training, has probably had some degree of shift work disorder, difficulty sleeping when we need to, staying awake during our shifts. But it's still really hard to figure out what we should be doing because, one, it's a multi-component system, so anything that I do to change your shift schedule has trickle-down effects to every one of your coworkers, and so we can't just tell one person, "Change what you're doing." It's also really hard to figure out what we should be doing. Should you only be working nights forever and ever and become purely nocturnal, and should we adapt everything to that, or we-- should we find some sort of compromise so that you can work the night shift but still have time to socialize and spend time with your family during the daytime? And how do we do all of that while still optimizing your health? And so, I think from a patient population, that is really a large problem we don't have a good answer to yet. 
Dr Grouse: Sounds like it's something that you really have to customize to every single patient who walks in and their, their particular scenarios. 
Dr Abbott: Absolutely. 
Dr Grouse: Jet lag disorders is another circadian rhythm disorder that I think we all have had some personal experience with. Any tips or tricks on how to manage jet lag going east or west, or any resources that you recommend that can help us manage this, or we can advise to our patients? 
Dr Abbott: Yeah. When we're talking about individualized, personalized treatment, I would say jet lag absolutely is way up there at the top of the list because it's not only a matter of where do you currently go to sleep and wake up in your current time zone, it is how many time zones are you going across to get to where you're going? Do you wanna keep the same schedule when you're at the new time zone? And all of these other factors in terms of how long you're gonna be there. When are you gonna come back? Does it make sense to fully adapt yourself to that new schedule? With that in mind, the general tips are if you are heading east, generally your goal is to shift everything earlier, and if you're heading west, generally the goal is to shift everything later. There are a lot of online calculators you can use where you can put in your current time zone, your destination time zone, and it will give you very specific information about when you should be getting light, when you should be avoiding light When melatonin may be helpful as another time cue that can help shift you. But again, it really depends on which direction and how many time zones and what time you're gonna arrive. I would say the practical tip that I have is whatever you do when you get to the new time zone, um, most of the time international travel involves overnight flights, so you may arrive in the morning. Resist the temptation to take a nap as soon as you arrive because that's just gonna make things harder and harder to adapt to. So, get out, be active, eat on the new time zone, try to push through that day, and then the homeostatic drive for sleep is gonna help you through that first night. 
Dr Grouse: Great tip, and definitely a tip I have failed to follow in past trips and regretted greatly afterwards. There were some other really great points that you made that as an ambulatory neurologist I hadn't thought of that was really, really helpful, including when we take care of patients in the hospital, of course, we-- we're always careful about, you know, potential sort of things we can do to minimize delirium. But in fact, there's probably a lot of things we can do to minimize disruption to circadian rhythms, which we already know that if we're not careful about, can be deleterious to health. What are some things that you recommend generally for patients who are admitted regarding monitoring and treatment that we can try to do to mitigate that effect? 
Dr Abbott: So, I would say the number one most important thing that you can do, and I did this every single day when I was on the wards, is when you walk into the patient's room for rounds in the morning, turn on the lights, open the curtains. We did an interesting study a few years ago because there was all of this discussion of nighttime disruption to hospital patients and a lot of concern that they were getting too much light and too much interruption to their sleep at night. But what we found out was actually the bigger problem may be that none of our patients are getting light during the daytime, and so they've just lost that amplitude of light rhythm. And so as much as you can maximize daytime and opening those curtains, turning on the lights, giving them a bunch of light during the day. And then obviously, on the opposite end, you wanna make sure that they're getting dark at nighttime. Being really thoughtful about what your patients actually need to have done while they're in the hospital. And so, do they really need to have vitals every four hours in the middle of the night? Is that gonna change their outcome, or are they just sitting there waiting for insurance to approve their rehab bed, and they're probably gonna be fine overnight without that disruption? I think those are the easy things that you can do. The slightly harder piece is there's a lot of debate about whether we really need to be doing four AM labs on all of our patients, for example. Obviously, that's disrupting everybody's sleep. It's making a phlebotomist be a shift worker. It's problematic in many respects, but at the same time, you need to collect the labs so the labs can actually be processed and you can have the results, and they can be available for rounds, and so you can discuss them so that then you can discharge the patient on time. And so, it's a whole set of moving parts that are sometimes a little hard to optimize specifically for the patient. 
Dr Grouse: Certainly, worth a discussion to have, though, and all really great tips. Another question kind of on that same vein. A lot of patients ask for something to help sleep at night. Melatonin is something we often give as sort of an easy, relatively gentle treatment that can help with sleep. Do you agree that that's a good idea? Is that something that you would generally recommend? 
Dr Abbott: So, I would say that melatonin on the overall risk versus benefit spectrum probably has very low side effects for your hospitalized patient. At the same time, we actually fought this battle here. On many of the hospital formularies, you have very high doses of melatonin, so it's five, ten milligrams. Now, the problem with that is it takes you long enough to metabolize that ten milligrams of melatonin that it is still gonna be in your system the next day. So, then you go to round on the patient the next day and they're groggy and they're out of it, and it may not be that they've neurologically deteriorated, it may still be that they have melatonin still in their system. So, if you are going to use that as sort of a first-line low-harm option, I would stick to one to three milligrams. 
Dr Grouse: Great. One to three milligrams is something I've often heard. Is that generally optimal dose and timing for melatonin, uh, you suggest for patients, or how do you approach thinking about the dose and timing? 
Dr Abbott: So, this is where it gets a little more complicated because we actually don't recommend using melatonin as a general hypnotic. It's not that great for treating insomnia in general. So, where we do more often use melatonin in circadian patients is as a phase-shifting stimuli. So, this is something that if you give melatonin at a specific time, it can either move your clock earlier or move your clock later. And that tends to be something that is a little more challenging to sort out. It's a conversation to figure out where your patient currently is from a rhythm standpoint, where you're trying to move them to. So not something I would use typically for insomnia, but more if you're trying to adjust somebody's timing. 
Dr Grouse: Excellent point and great recommendations. Now, switching gears a little bit, you had mentioned and you alluded earlier that circadian rhythm disruption can be something that we find in certain neurologic diseases and conditions we all treat and may even be an early sign of some of them. What are some general conditions in neurology that we see circadian rhythm disruption?
Dr Abbott: So, I think one of the areas where it's often an early sign of a disorder is in neurodegenerative disorders. So, we often do see that that typical daily rhythm and amplitude, and what I mean by that is that sort of difference between how active you are during the daytime and how inactive you are at night. That tends to become dampened and more fragmented even before you start to see some of the other signs and symptoms of neurodegenerative disorders, so things like Alzheimer's. So, it often can be kind of an early hallmark that something else might be coming. Now, other ways that we can see circadian rhythm disruption in other neurologic disorders, I think probably the more under-recognized is in any disorder where a patient may have decreased mobility, sort of overall inactivity during the day. Maybe they have chronic pain, maybe they have really bad migraines, so they're spending lots of time in a dark room disrupting their sleep schedule. All of these things can lead to patients having more of an irregular pattern, so having chunks of sleep and wake that are just sort of distributed randomly throughout the night and the day, and they lose that overall rhythmicity to their behaviors, which then translates into a loss of rhythm and light exposure, a loss of rhythm in food intake. All of these things can kind of build on each other. 
Dr Grouse: Well, that's a really good point. You know, often we think of, you know, sleep disruption causing a lot of these problems, like migraine being a very common one. But don't think about as much of the fact that the migraine itself could be contributing to the sleep dysfunction. So, a very, very interesting point there. Now, I was curious, having read the article, what isn't in the article that you wanted to put in? 
Dr Abbott: So, I think the focus of this article really was primarily on the neurologic aspect of things, but I do think it's important that if people are interested in this and excited about this area, that they recognize that it's not just neurologic disorders that are impacted by this. There's a lot of really exciting research going on in the area of oncology, for example. There's some really cool research showing that the timing of your first dose of chemotherapy actually dramatically impacts your outcomes. And so, I think there are a lot of really interesting areas where thinking about your circadian system can really optimize treatment, not just within the area of neurology. 
Dr Grouse: That's amazing. Well, I'll be really interested to see where that heads. And then of course, on that same topic, any new treatments or diagnostic modalities on the horizon that our listeners should be on the lookout for? 
Dr Abbott: So, I think as a field, we are always looking for better ways of looking at circadian markers within the clinic. And so, multiple groups, including our own, have been looking at blood tests. So, is there a way that with one or two samples we can actually get a profile of what your current biological time is? And so, I think those blood tests are still being validated in patients with disorders. We've mostly looked at them in healthy controls. I think other areas we're looking at new diagnostic tools to actually get a sense of how people are responding to their environment. So, we're doing a study looking at using pupillometry, which is a way of measuring how your pupil responds to light, and using that to figure out whether you may or may not be somebody who responds well to light or poorly to light, and can we tailor your treatments for that? So, I think we're looking at many different ways that we can improve diagnostics in the outpatient setting. 
Dr Grouse: Well, that's really fascinating. I can't wait to hear more about what may be coming around the corner. Thanks so much for sharing, and I'm sure you've inspired some of our trainees considering a career in sleep medicine. Thank you so much for sharing, and I really again encourage all of our listeners to check out her wonderful article. 
Dr Abbott: Thanks for having me. It was great to have a chance to talk about this, and I second your hope that more trainees will be interested in sleep and circadian medicine. It's really an exciting field to get into. 
Dr Grouse: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr. Sabra Abbott about her article on circadian neurology. This article appears in the August twenty twenty-six Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Hypersomnia encompasses a group of disorders characterized by excessive daytime sleepiness that can significantly impair quality of life and neurologic function. In this episode, Dr. Margaret Kay-Stacey discusses how to recognize and evaluate hypersomnia, reviews key features of narcolepsy and idiopathic hypersomnia, and highlights the many neurologic conditions associated with excessive sleepiness. Learn practical approaches to diagnosis, treatment, and distinguishing primary hypersomnia disorders from more common causes such as insufficient sleep, sleep apnea, medications, and depression.
In this episode, Gordon Smith, MD, FAAN, speaks with Margaret Kay-Stacey, MD, author of the article "Hypersomnia" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue.
Dr. Smith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor and chair of neurology at Kenneth and Dianne Wright Distinguished Chair in Clinical and Translational Research at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia.  
Dr. Kay-Stacey is an Assistant Professor of Neurology and Ambulatory Medical Director at the University of Chicago Medical Center in Chicago, Illinois.
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Host: @GordonSmithMD
 Full episode transcript available here
Dr Smith: So, what do myotonic dystrophy, Parkinson's disease, and traumatic brain injury have in common? It turns out that each can cause clinically significant and meaningful hypersomnolence. And did you know that narcolepsy has the same population prevalence in the United States as myasthenia gravis, something I commonly see in clinic? If you want to learn more about hypersomnolence and how it impacts the patients you care for and what to do about it, keep listening. 
Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. 
Dr Smith: This is Dr. Gordon Smith. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Meg Kay-Stacey about her article on hypersomnia, which appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on the neurology of sleep. Meg, welcome to the podcast, and maybe you can begin by just introducing yourself to our audience. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. So, like you said, I'm Meg Kay-Stacey. I'm a sleep neurologist at the University of Chicago. I'm also the AAN's Sleep Section vice chair. 
Dr Smith: Awesome. I didn't quite know what to expect in reading your article, except it was gonna be about people who are really sleepy. I was really amazed at how common these problems are, even, we'll get into this, disorders that I think of as being super rare. So, I know our listeners are gonna really enjoy hearing from you. I wonder if you could begin by just defining hypersomnia and maybe give us a flavor for the impact this has on patients who have primary disorders of hypersomnia. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. I mean, so hypersomnia is really an excessive daytime sleepiness, so a feeling of excessive sleepiness, feeling like they can't stay awake during the day. And these patients' quality of life is quite impacted by these symptoms, and there's lots of different conditions that can cause it, but it can be quite detrimental to day-to-day living. 
Dr Smith: I honestly am sleepy a lot cause I work too hard or stay up late, and sleepiness seems to be a very common symptom. How do you sort out when a patient's excessive daytime sleepiness is pathologic related to lifestyle and the extent to which it may be a sleep apnea versus one of the other disorders that we'll talk about? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. I mean, you really have to take a good history. So as neurologists, we know that, that we have to do that, but particularly a sleep history and really understand, first and foremost, how much sleep the patient is getting. Really important to understand, are they getting adequate sleep at night, right? Because chronic insufficient sleep can cause daytime sleepiness, right? And can make people appear like they might have a primary hypersomnia disorder when in fact they don't. So that's sort of first and foremost, and then it's assessing the other symptoms that they have. So, it's assessing nocturnal symptoms. You mentioned sleep apnea, so assessing for things like snoring and witnessed apneas, nocturia, and then assessing for what the quality of their sleep like. Is it refreshing? Is it not refreshing? How easy or hard is it to wake up in the morning? And then asking them again about daytime symptoms. Are you falling asleep inappropriately at work? Are, you know, you falling asleep while driving? Are you finding it hard to stay awake even after you've had a full night of sleep? To really try to differentiate what the symptoms might be from. And then it's also assessing things, sleep apnea, for example, physical exam findings. You know, are they obese? Do they have a larger neck circumference? Is the airway more crowded? And then we do have some measures, some scales, so there's the Epworth Sleepiness Scale that we'll use that assesses sleepiness, which is kind of a good way to at least initially assess how sleepy a patient might be during the day. 
Dr Smith: So that's great, and we'll talk a bit about sleep apnea, I hope. But when I hear hypersomnia, I always think about narcolepsy, and I wonder if maybe we can begin there. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. 
Dr Smith: I was super interested to learn how common this is. About as common as myasthenia gravis. Actually, the population prevalence number is exactly the same as myasthenia. My Monday morning clinic is mostly myasthenia. So how do we recognize narcolepsy? Cause I'm worrying that I'm missing it. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, narcolepsy, you know, there's two types. There's narcolepsy type 1 and narcolepsy type 2. So, narcolepsy type 1 is a little easier because you have cataplexy. But with both conditions, you're gonna see excessive daytime sleepiness. You're gonna ask about things like sleep paralysis, whether or not they're having sleep-related hallucinations, so hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations. Are they having other sort of REM, intrusion phenomenon? You may also hear things like REM behavior disorder, so acting out their dreams at night, and then some degree of, you know, difficulty waking up in the morning, feeling like they need to nap. Naps are often more refreshing in patients with narcolepsy which is a feature that when we talk about idiopathic hypersomnia kind of helps to differentiate them. So, it's really just asking about sleepiness and assessing for these other symptoms that they can have associated with narcolepsy. 
Dr Smith: I was also interested to learn that narcolepsy is the most common cause of REM sleep behavior disorder in young patients, which is pretty cool. But I wonder, you used a term that I've never heard of, and I'm betting some of our listeners haven't, which is REM intrusion phenomenon. Could you tell us more about that?
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, this is the idea that in narcolepsy, your sleep states are sort of, jumbled up, would be the way of thinking of it. You have these phenomenon where REM will persist into wakefulness. So, sleep paralysis is actually a perfect example of that, right? That you wake up and you feel like you're awake, but your body is still paralyzed, you can't move. Cataplexy is similarly a REM intrusion phenomenon, as are these hallucinations that I mentioned, the sleep-related hallucinations. 
Dr Smith: So what pearls do you have for recognizing cataplexy? What's the spectrum of cataplexy? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, I think cataplexy, it's associated with emotion, right? And we most commonly think about it being associated with laughter, right, with positive emotion, but it's key to remember that it can happen with negative emotion too, with fright, being upset or angry. And usually when you're asking patients about it, you wanna phrase it to understand, are they having episodes where they feel like they have brief loss of muscle tone? And it can be subtle. It can be a head drop, their mouth opening, a hand dropping something, and it's brief. Usually it's seconds to just a couple of minutes. These aren't prolonged episodes, and they're not losing consciousness. They're awake, they're just having that brief loss of muscle tone. 
Dr Smith: So, what about orexin? I'm particularly interested in how often it's necessary to do an LP and look for CSF orexin levels. Is that a common thing in your practice, or do you rely on clinical phenomenology in a, you know, polysomnogram with multiple sleep latency testing to confirm a diagnosis of narcolepsy? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Most commonly, you're gonna still do the PSG and the MSLT, obviously, because it's less invasive than doing the lumbar puncture. There are scenarios, right, where you may consider doing the LP. I think if someone has cataplexy and you're pretty confident in that and they have a positive PSG, MSLT testing done, you know, you really don't need the lumbar puncture, right? But if you're in that gray area that for whatever reason you have a really high suspicion they have narcolepsy, but for whatever reason the PSG, MSLT either couldn't be done or it was inconclusive, then I might think about doing the lumbar puncture. The other scenario is that there are some patients who have to be on REM-suppressing medications, like antidepressants, for example. In those patients, it can confound the results. And so, if you're not able to stop those for the MSLT testing, then that would be a scenario where I might use the lumbar puncture. Insurance is another reason that, again, if you have some of that inconclusive findings on the PSG, MSLT, that doing the lumbar puncture then can help to confirm the diagnosis, but only useful for type 1 narcolepsy, not type 2. 
Dr Smith: And type 2 is like type 1 but without cataplexy? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Exactly. And then you kind of can think of it as sort of on a spectrum, I would say. There's sort of narcolepsy type 1, and there's idiopathic hypersomnia, and narcolepsy type 2 kind of falls in between. 
Dr Smith: Do you require the other core features of narcolepsy to make a diagnosis of type 2, like sleep paralysis, hallucinations? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Right. You do. You don't necessarily have to have all of them, but you will see similar features, though most of them are more common in, in type 1 than in type 2. 
Dr Smith: So, I'm understanding you need to see, REM intrusion phenomena. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Mm-hmm. Yes. 
Dr Smith: I love saying that. Makes me sound like I'm part of the sleep team. Now we're all part of the sleep team, aren't we? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. 
Dr Smith: What about idiopathic hypersomnia? In reading about it and thinking about it, it sounds a lot like narcolepsy without those other features, but there, there are some differences. I wonder if you could give our listeners pearls into how to recognize that as opposed to maybe type 2 narcolepsy. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So idiopathic hypersomnia patients are also very sleepy during the day. They're more commonly going to describe that they sleep through the night, often for long hours, and that they wake up and still feel very unrefreshed. They'll have what we call, morning sleep inertia, or some people call it, you know, sleep drunkenness, where when they wake up in the morning, they feel like they're in a haze or a fog. It's really hard to get out of bed. They're often setting multiple alarms. And this is after having a full night of sleep, ten, twelve hours of sleep, and then they just feel tired and sleepy all day. If they nap, their naps will often feel unrefreshing, and when they take naps, they're often longer naps, and then they wake up and again will maybe feel some of that sleep drunkenness or inertia, and it makes it difficult for them to wake up. And then they don't have as many of the REM intrusion phenomena, but you still can sometimes hear things like sleep paralysis or the hallucinations in patients with idiopathic hypersomnia. And so that's where it does get tricky when you're trying to differentiate from narcolepsy. Really, the difference with narcolepsy and idiopathic hypersomnia when you do testing has to do with what you see on the overnight sleep study on the polysomnogram followed by that multiple sleep latency test. In the case of all three conditions, the MSLT should show a mean sleep latency of eight minutes or less. What separates narcolepsy from idiopathic hypersomnia is that in narcolepsy, the expectation's you'll have two or more sleep onset REM periods, so you go into REM sleep very quickly. Whereas in idiopathic hypersomnia, you'll have one sleep onset REM period or less. Traditionally, you'd think of that you wouldn't have any, but you theoretically could have one on that. So, that's sort of one way that we can differentiate the two. 
Dr Smith: That's really helpful, actually. Thank you. What about treatment? There are a whole bunch of different medications that you talk about in your article, including, medications that are in the pipeline, which is exciting. What's the treatment approach, maybe starting with narcolepsy? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, with narcolepsy, there are more FDA-approved medications and options then there are for idiopathic hypersomnia, which is, you know, one of the things I hope will change over time with things that are in the pipeline. But with narcolepsy, traditionally often start first with an alerting agent such as modafinil or armodafinil to really help with those daytime symptoms. And then there are a number of other medications that can be used. Sometimes if the armodafinil, modafinil don't work, we'll advance into stimulant medications that are amphetamine containing. At night, there's a medication called sodium oxybate that you can take for narcolepsy. The low sodium oxybate is actually also approved for idiopathic hypersomnia. But sodium oxybate, the idea is that you're taking it at night, and it's helping to reduce the disrupted sleep that occurs in patients with narcolepsy, really kind of enhances slow-wave sleep at night and makes the sleep that patients are getting better quality, which then improves both excessive daytime sleepiness during the day as well as the cataplexy. And then there are some other medications, solrimfetol and pitolisant, that are also used in narcolepsy. I don't wanna necessarily get into the nitty-gritty of all of the mechanisms of action, but definitely read the article to learn more about that.
Dr Smith: So that's really helpful. What about cataplexy? Do these medicines also help with cataplexy, or is there a different approach for that symptom? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, sodium oxybate definitely can be used, and the low-dose sodium oxybate can be used to help with the cataplexy. But then we'll also sometimes use medications in the antidepressant category as well. So, SSRIs, SNRIs, and tricyclic antidepressants can all also be used to help in the treatment of cataplexy. 
Dr Smith: And how about idiopathic hypersomnia? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So, for idiopathic hypersomnia, there are, you know, as I mentioned, less treatment options and not as many things FDA-approved. But, it was exciting, low-dose sodium oxybate was approved for idiopathic hypersomnia, so it's taken at night, similar to how it's used in narcolepsy, and does improve that excessive daytime sleepiness. And then we often will also use some of the other medications off-label, so modafinil, armodafinil, and the stimulant medications. But some of the other meds like the pitolisant and solrimfetol, those are not FDA-approved for the use in idiopathic hypersomnia. 
Dr Smith: So, I'm curious if we know what causes these conditions, so narcolepsy type 1, type 2, and idiopathic hypersomnia. I mean, the treatments all seem very kind of neuromodulatory in some way, you know, interacting with the REM system, for instance. What's the current thought regarding mechanism, underlying cause? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: So, narcolepsy type 1, it's due to the loss of orexin neurons in the hypothalamus. So that one is sort of the easiest of them that we know that those orexin-producing neurons are lost. There are thoughts that both with narcolepsy 1 and type 2, that there is autoimmune related concept and then also potentially some genetics, though it's not completely clear that it's one mechanism or another. But certainly, easiest is narcolepsy type 1 with that loss of orexin neurons. For idiopathic hypersomnia, we're not exactly sure actually what causes it. Again, some thoughts about maybe there being an autoimmune-related phenomenon for some patients, may begin for them after they've had infection, for example. And then some thoughts that perhaps GABA receptors are impacted in idiopathic hypersomnia. 
Dr Smith: Great. Well, that's super helpful, and I'm definitely gonna be on the lookout for narcolepsy. But let me pivot. I wonder if we might play a little bit of a game here. There's so many other things that cause hypersomnia, other disorders and situations, and rather than kind of march through them, I wonder if I could give you a name of a particular neurologic disease or situation and have you provide our listeners just a sentence or two about one thing they should know about hypersomnia in that disorder. You up for it? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Sure. 
Dr Smith: So, let's begin with my backyard, myotonic dystrophy. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So myotonic dystrophy, we see an association actually with narcolepsy. So, certainly with patients with myotonic dystrophy, you'll see excessive daytime sleepiness, and should be screening them for narcolepsy. You should also be screening them for sleep apnea. 
Dr Smith: How about Parkinson's disease? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Parkinson's disease, at least a third of those patients will describe excessive daytime sleepiness. They can also experience sleep attacks during the day, likely has to do with dopaminergic mechanisms. 
Dr Smith: So, I'm gonna ask a question in the middle of our game. So, in myotonic dystrophy, it's actually true narcolepsy. So, you would want to screen for that, and then if they meet the criteria, you would treat them similar to we spoke about earlier. All right. How about traumatic brain injury? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. So traumatic brain injury, very common for patients to experience excessive daytime sleepiness. Those patients will also experience circadian dysregulation. So, when you're interacting, you know, with those patients, you definitely wanna get a good sleep history, understand is there a circadian component, or is it true excessive hypersomnia related to the brain injury? 
Dr Smith: How about multiple sclerosis? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: So, MS, not as common for it to be hypersomnia per se, more common to hear fatigue in these patients. I do think, again, sleep apnea is probably under-recognized in MS patients, so making sure you're screening for that. But not-- do not classically hear, you know, primary hypersomnia disorders, more so fatigue. But MS fatigue is treated similarly to some of our hypersomnia conditions, often use a modafinil or an armodafinil for that. 
Dr Smith: How about medications?
Dr Kay-Stacey: So, there's a lot of medications that can cause excessive daytime sleepiness, a lot of medications that we as neurologists give, right? We're very aware that our anti-seizure medications can potentially cause excessive daytime sleepiness. The antidepressants that we use to treat various neuropathic pain conditions and migraines can cause sleepiness. The antidopaminergic medications can cause sleepiness. Benzodiazepines can cause sleepiness. Muscle relaxers can cause sleepiness. So, lots of different, medications that we use to treat neurologic conditions can create sleepiness. 
Dr Smith: How about stroke? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Stroke can cause sleepiness too. Also can cause fatigue, and sometimes it can be challenging to differentiate. There's also a higher incidence of sleep apnea in patients with stroke as well, so you definitely wanna make sure that you're screening for that. But yeah, depending on the location of the stroke too, that can also contribute to the sleepiness 'cause if it's anywhere sort of along the ascending reticular activating system, it could cause a problem.
Dr Smith: And maybe one more, depression. 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah, so depression also can be tricky to differentiate from hypersomnia, and you do really wanna make sure when you're seeing these patients that you're assessing to make sure that it's not the depression that's causing them to be sleepy. You know, patients with depression will often spend long hours in bed and spend a lot of time sleeping, and so you do really kind of have to piece that together and figure out what's what. 
Dr Smith: Hey, that was fun, and I think we've probably convinced everyone who's listening to us that they probably should check out and read the article because guaranteed, no matter what you do in neurology, there's something in this article for you. One thing we didn't talk about, one of the kind of eight central causes of hypersomnolence that I thought worth kind of winding up with is insufficient sleep syndrome. I wonder if we might talk about this from the point of view of our listeners. And what advice do you have to neurologists and people who care for patients with brain disease regarding self-care and sleep self-care and not ending up with insufficient sleep syndrome? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: Yeah. Great question, and I think I have been thinking a lot about just sleep in general because sleep is so important to brain health, right? I know the AAN has been big proponents of the importance of sleep, and there was lots of talk about it at the annual meeting because of that. You know, the average adult needs somewhere between seven and nine hours of sleep per night. So, if you're getting less than that, you are at risk for insufficient sleep, and that insufficient sleep builds up over time. So, you can't recover from many months or years of insufficient sleep by sleeping for just one night. And so, it is really important to make sleep a priority because when you have chronic insufficient sleep, it can mimic some of these other conditions. You can see narcolepsy-like symptoms where you're falling asleep inappropriately, where it's impacting your quality of life, potentially impacting your ability to drive. So definitely very important to really try to target that seven to nine hours of sleep per night. And I think from a self-care standpoint, if you feel like you are getting that seven to nine hours of sleep per night and you're still feeling sleepy or still feeling unrefreshed or dozing off during the day, then you really should get assessed for an underlying sleep condition that might be causing you to feel that way. 
Dr Smith: So, Meg, this has really been such a great conversation, and it's a really great article. I wonder if we might wind up with one more question, which is if there was one thing our listeners should remember from our conversation, other than to kind of wait for their Continuum issue to arrive and immediately read this article, what would it be? What should they remember? 
Dr Kay-Stacey: I think that if a patient is telling you that they're sleepy or tired during the day, that you really need to dig in and figure out what it is. Is it something that they themselves are doing that's behaviorally induced? Is it something that's happening with their sleep at night? Or is it an underlying primary hypersomnia condition that you can treat, right? These conditions are treatable, and you can have really a significant impact on quality of life, which is, you know, the best part of our jobs when we can actually make our patients feel better. 
Dr Smith: Fantastic. Meg, thank you so much. I know that our listeners really enjoyed this. I know they'll enjoy the article as well. Thank you. Again, today, I've been interviewing Dr. Meg Kay-Stacey about her article on hypersomnia, which appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on the neurology of sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thanks to you, our listeners, for joining us today. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Insomnia affects neurologic health, quality of life, and daily functioning, but effective treatments are available. In this episode, Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews discusses a practical approach to evaluating chronic insomnia, highlights the importance of identifying contributing conditions such as sleep apnea and mood disorders, and reviews cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), the recommended first-line treatment. Learn how addressing sleep can improve outcomes across a wide range of neurologic disorders.
In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Brandon R. Peters-Mathews, MD, FAAN, FAASM, author of the article "Insomnia" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue.
Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California, San Francisco in San Francisco, California.
Dr. Peters-Mathews is the Section Head of Sleep Medicine at Virginia Mason Franciscan Health in Seattle, Washington.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Insomnia
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Host: @BrandonPetersMD
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Grouse: Insomnia may be one of the most common medical issues experienced by patients, yet our knowledge about how to manage it remains limited. Today, I have the opportunity to speak with one of the world's leading experts on sleep disorders, Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews, about the latest issue of Continuum on Neurology of Sleep. 
Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. 
Dr Grouse: This is Dr. Katie Grouse. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews about his article on insomnia. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. 
Dr Peters-Mathews: It's my pleasure to join you, and I'm happy to talk about this article. I think it's an interesting one for most folks. I am a board-certified sleep neurologist. I practice at Virginia Mason Franciscan Health in Seattle. I did my neurology training back at the University of Minnesota and my sleep training at Stanford University. I've been in practice for more than thirteen years at this point. It's hard to believe, but it's exciting to be able to speak with you today. 
Dr Grouse: This is definitely an important topic for everybody. Certainly, sleep and the lack of it affects all of our patients, and I can't imagine there's a single clinical neurologist who doesn't have to answer questions and help evaluate patients with this problem, so very high-yield topic for everyone. Now, having read your article, I'm curious if you had to choose one key point that you want the readers of your article to take away after reading it, what would it be? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: Emphasize for my patients that insomnia is a condition that we can work through and resolve, that if we really can understand the underlying contributing causes and resolve those issues, we can typically improve sleep. It's a process. It takes time. It takes some attention and, and sometimes even testing to figure out what's going on. But if we can dial into these root causes, we can typically help somebody to sleep much better. As part of that, we often employ a therapy called CBT-I, which we'll talk about here a little bit later. But that also helps us to identify some of these contributing factors that are leading to the poor sleep. 
Dr Grouse: And I definitely want to talk more about CBT, it's such an important topic. But even before we get into that, I'd love it if you could just walk us through a hypothetical case of a patient with insomnia. I think the type of patient that I think we've all seen in our clinical practice and somebody who says, "You know, I've had poor sleep. I've had insomnia for many years. I've tried all of the things you're supposed to try. You know, I've tried sleep hygiene. I've tried this. I've tried that. I've tried medications. Nothing seems to work." Could you walk us through how you would evaluate a patient like this and start to consider what to recommend?
Dr Peters-Mathews: So, some simple information that we can gather, would be information about when they're trying to go to bed, how long it's taking them to fall asleep initially. If they wake in the night and have trouble getting back to sleep, how often they wake in the night. If they're experiencing early morning awakenings, their final wake time, and when they actually get out of bed in the morning. That gives me a sense of the structure of their sleep pattern and whether or not they might be spending an excessive amount of time in bed for their own sleep need at their current age. The other factors that we might consider are sleep disorders, and typically, I would assess for other symptoms that would point me towards sleep apnea or restless legs and occasionally other disorders of sleep. We wanna make sure we're not missing comorbid conditions that might be affecting that person. These often include mood disorders. Sleep and mood walk hand in hand, and so anxiety and depression are important to identify and treat if present. We also want to make sure someone's not suffering from chronic pain or other conditions that might be impacting their sleep. So, I take a broad approach. I ask the same questions to each patient that comes to see me. I wanna make sure I'm not missing some of these details. And then some of these folks will require testing to further understand their sleep. Others may move on to a different therapy, and long-term may require even other interventions, including medications, to fully resolve their condition. 
Dr Grouse: You mentioned in your article circadian rhythm sleep disorders. How often are these really a factor in patients with chronic insomnia? And do you think that's something that we as kind of first-line clinicians should be screening for as well? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: So delayed sleep phase syndrome is the most common circadian disorder, and these are folks who are night owls by nature. They often develop their sleep patterns, as teenagers, if not before, and they may fade away in the working years but come back in retirement age. I would say that's a very common condition. It may affect as many as one in ten people. The other circadian disorders are pretty uncommon, so advanced sleep phase syndrome, where somebody is sleepy early and waking too early, that may only affect one in three hundred people. There are other conditions that affect specific populations, like non-twenty-four circadian pattern affects blind people. Typically, half of blind people have that condition. There are conditions that affect the regularity of sleep, so an irregular sleep-wake pattern that might occur more in folks with maybe an advanced dementia. So, there are populations where these conditions can be fairly common, but among the general population, that night owl tendency is by far the most common. 
Dr Grouse: That's really helpful. And just taking a step back, why is insomnia bad for us? So, we worry about this in our patients. We know it can make neurologic issues worse. But in general, like, what are the reasons that having poor sleep can affect our health?
Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah, and it's not enough hours, certainly quantity, but also quality of sleep that matters. And I tell people that sleep is a pillar of health, just like nutrition and exercise. It's the other main contributor to our health and well-being. And so, it has its fingers in almost every aspect of our health. Insomnia on its own is a risk factor for other psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, even disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia. Folks with insomnia are more likely to have alcohol or drug abuse issues and are at higher risk for things like chronic pain, suicide and, and social and occupational dysfunction. So, it's a disorder that has a really profound effect on how someone functions during the day, and again, may take a toll on their health over time. 
Dr Grouse: That makes sense, and I would assume that there are certain populations within our neurology practices where we should really be attuned to the risk of insomnia. Are there specific populations you'd recommend really make it a habit of screening for insomnia? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: I was joking with someone recently that anyone with a neurological nervous system can have issues, impacted by poor sleep. There are certain groups, so chronic headache patients are perhaps one that might warrant a further evaluation and management. Folks with multiple sclerosis or Parkinson's may have physical conditions that lead to more discomfort in sleep, fewer movements of their body in sleep, issues around nocturia that would disturb their sleep. Certainly, those with dementia, Alzheimer's disease and other dementias. Parkinson's and Lewy body dementia overlap a lot, as does multiple system atrophy. That can point us towards other conditions like REM sleep behavior disorder, but also insomnia can be an important feature of those disorders as well. And then folks with stroke often have disturbance to their sleep and may develop insomnia after experiencing a stroke. So those are specific populations where I think the yield is high to be looking for insomnia and other sleep disorders. 
Dr Grouse: Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of us think of insomnia as almost like, make sure we're not missing this as sort of a mimic of the problem, when in fact it's probably just more part and parcel of the problem and something we need to be thinking about treating as part of their disorder. So helpful to think about it in that light, at least in my own mind. Now, I want to get a little bit back to some of the therapies you've recommended, and I think first just stopping again at sleep hygiene. Your article has a really great list, I think, of sort of like a checklist of actions that people should be taking to make sure that they are managing their sleep hygiene well. And I definitely recommend our listeners look to that. How often do you think that focusing on sleep hygiene helps when you get a patient who says, "Hey, I have got terrible sleep. You know, what do I do?" 
Dr Peters-Mathews: It's pretty common for people to have access to this information through their own reading online, and most folks have worked through this by the time they've come to see me, and often a primary care provider or specialist may have given some of this guidance as well. It's pretty rare for them to not recognize something as obvious as having caffeine too late in the day by the time they're coming to my attention. The sleep hygiene generally is used as a control when we do research to look at how something like medication is working or CBT-I might be working. It's the comparative control. It's almost like the null intervention. So, it's not highly effective, and if folks are not finding it helpful, they've made those adjustments to their sleep environment or their habits, and they're continuing to have issues, there's typically more that needs to be done, and that's where CBT-I really comes in as a strong intervention for those people. 
Dr Grouse: And then getting on the topic of CBT-I, so helpful. I'm really glad that your article spent a lot of time talking about it as really a truly high-yield, great intervention for insomnia. And I really felt that the question shouldn't be: When is cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia helpful? But like, when isn't it helpful? What are your thoughts about that? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah. I always point out that the American College of Physicians has recommended CBT-I for adult patients as the initial treatment for chronic insomnia even before the use of a medication for nearly ten years. That recommendation came out in July of 2016. So, there are folks who may not be good candidates for it, who may be screened out because of other conditions that they have, and there certainly are folks who don't do as well with CBT-I. And adherence is important. Somebody needs to be able to follow the instructions and apply that to their lives. And certainly, there are a number of things that could interfere with that compliance. I would say untreated anxiety and pain are two things that often trip people up. It's like running a race with a broken leg. Despite their best efforts, if those are not addressed, they will continue to have issues around insomnia. And then one thing that often is unrecognized and may be missed is untreated sleep apnea. That is a common contributor to a chronic insomnia, especially in older folks, women beyond the age of menopause and men even starting in middle age, thirties and forties. We don't want to miss sleep apnea. Even insomnia that's, "I can't fall asleep at the beginning of night," that could still be sleep apnea, so that's something I really emphasize with my patients. 
Dr Grouse: Really great reminder about sleep apnea for sure. Something that always is beneficial to make sure we are not missing. Oftentimes I'll bring up a CBT for insomnia, and what is that? Like, what would we actually do, and what is a high-level overview of what happens with CBT-I? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah. So, I generally tell my patients that this is a six-week program. It's a structured program, almost like a boot camp for sleep, in which we are addressing underlying causes, recognizing what those are and, and working through those underlying causes. There is often tracking using a sleep log or sometimes wearable data.To guide decisions that are made in the program. It's very goal-directed, science-based therapy. We often introduce concepts around sleep drive, circadian rhythm dealing with a busy mind at night. There's concepts of mindfulness and relaxation training that are introduced. People often are able to taper or stop using sleeping pills as part of this therapy. And the nice thing is they walk away with a set of skills that they can apply the rest of their lives to sleep more normally. And so, there's good research that suggests even years after someone's completed a CBT-I course, they continue to sleep more normally. They have the tools that they need to sleep better even years beyond that education. 
Dr Grouse: You know, this just sounds so great. It almost sounds like why wouldn't someone benefit from this? But of course, like I would imagine many institutions experience, I've definitely run into difficulties with access for my patients for CBT-I, and we have long wait lists. And I imagine there's many places where there just aren't even any specialists that patients can get to, to help with this. What are the resources that our listeners can take advantage of for their patients to get access to these types of therapies? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: So, one thing I tried to really emphasize in the article is that there are resources that can be drawn in. I'll give you some examples. So, at our institution, we have three sleep specialists, full-time sleep specialists, who trained at Stanford to become CBT-I specialists, and so we have more resources than probably most institutions would have. We do shared medical appointment workshops so that we can manage the number of patients that we have to see. And, and unfortunately, not everybody has that opportunity. You might plug into resources in your community, and one of the resources I point to in the article is the International Directory that's managed by the University of Pennsylvania that has eight hundred and seventy-five CBT-I specialists listed with contact information, et cetera. And I think that's an amazing opportunity to access this therapy. Unfortunately, there are countries and certainly states that do not have a specialist, that there's no one in the state that provides this therapy. And then we need to extend other resources, and that could be online treatment programs that can be done independently, bibliotherapy, so accessing books that could guide people through the therapy, even accessing other apps and maybe even wearables that pair with an app that could provide some of this guidance. The Veterans Administration worked with Stanford and worked with the National Center for PTSD and developed an app called CBT-I Coach that is free and can be downloaded and, and gives, I think, good education, good guidance. So, there are resources that exist. It's somewhat finding what might work for your individual patient, how they're preferring to access this or their learning preferences. Do they want to read a book or not? And getting them into the right pathway. 
Dr Grouse: And I think that gets me into a whole other Pandora's box of the fact that they're already out there in the world are tons of different apps, wearable devices, all sorts of things that promise that they can help us with sleep, some that may have more, I think, data and evidence behind them than others. Do any of these apps or wearables in your mind show promise in our patients helping our patients track and diagnose and manage their insomnia? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah, there's a lot out there, and unfortunately, some of these devices actually can make sleep worse. People can develop a condition called orthosomnia or straight sleep, where they're trying to perfect their sleep and their sleep numbers, their metrics, and the wearables feeding them data that they continue to try to improve upon. And that fixation on those metrics can actually make their sleep quite a bit worse. A lot of these wearables and apps and other resources have not been well-studied. There's not research trials showing outcomes comparing to other standards of care. I would say the basic guidance of CBT-I, which many of these programs are based on, I think will be helpful to the majority of folks who are able to engage and complete that education. A lot of these are not dependent on that sort of framework or structure so that we may not actually be using the standards of CBT-I to try to improve sleep. They may be connecting you with other resources, like listen to this sleep story or this relaxation file or do some meditation, et cetera, which again, may be of some benefit, but it is not the same as a structured CBT-I experience. So, I think there are a few good resources that we highlight within the article, and I think there are probably others coming that may give individuals a more individualized, directed approach to managing their sleep issues. But it's almost like going to the App Store and there's thousands of apps. It's hard to know which one might be most based on science or the most beneficial to that individual. 
Dr Grouse: Well, I really appreciate in your article that you did have a great list of apps and things along those lines to try, so I do encourage our listeners to check that out as well. Some really, really great resources there in the article in many different areas. Now, I wanted to turn the conversation to a slightly different thing, which is medications for insomnia. Now, when are medications appropriate for treating insomnia? When should we be thinking about turning to these for our patients? 
Dr Peters-Mathews: So again, we would suggest that CBT-I would be first, and that failing improvement with CBT-I, that medications would be extended to a person affected by insomnia. And over-the-counter options as well as prescription medications might be used. Unfortunately, that's not how things unfold in the real world. Many people are jumping to medications first, whether that be an over-the-counter supplement or other medication, or they're seeing primary care and other specialists who's providing them a prescription for sleep aid. So there's data from the CDC going back to twenty twenty that suggests that about six point three percent of adults were taking a sleeping medication every day in the months prior to the survey. And women who were older than sixty five, white women, were more likely to be using a sleeping medication every day. That number was 13.5 percent of those surveyed. So, lots of folks are on medications, and certainly melatonin is widely used. Unfortunately, it's not regulated by the FDA in a sense that we don't have exact concentrations controlled. So, people can take melatonin that has no melatonin in it. They might take melatonin that's forty or more times the dose. There's variance within lots from the same manufacturer. There's a lot of trouble knowing exactly what you're getting when you try to take something like melatonin over the counter. Other sleep aids that we might reach to over the counter, like variants of diphenhydramine or doxylamine, and these are often the PM drugs that we think about. They have risks associated with population-based studies which suggest risk of dementia, risk of falling, risk of mortality with these drugs, especially in older populations. So again, that would give us potentially pause. The prescription medications that we go to, there are some that the American Academy of Sleep Medicine would recommend as more beneficial than harmful, and some are good for both initiating and maintaining sleep. Some have such a short half-life that they're really best as initiation drugs. And then others are better for maintenance of sleep, so reducing awakenings and wakefulness in the night. My own individual take, often people are coming to me on medications, typically over the counter, but often prescriptions, and have even tried and failed many of those medications before they finally come to see a specialist. And so, I don't often reach to medications until I've exhausted CBT-I, until we've completed a sleep test to make sure we're not missing something like sleep apnea, until we've ruled out some other potential contributing causes. But there are patients I have who really will not sleep without medication support and sometimes even multiple medications that work in complementary ways to try to normalize their sleep. And so, in some cases it is necessary, but it is not meant to be a first line for anyone. 
Dr Grouse: Yeah, and I think all of our listeners can relate to the fact that we often see patients who've been on sleep medicines for many, many years and take them every night. It's good to know that there is sort of a procedure here to consider and perhaps again, back to the plug to CBT-I as being the right starting point to see if there's some that we can help get off of these meds, although, as you mentioned, maybe not always going to be successful. Well, I really appreciate our conversation about this. It's been really great to read this article about insomnia. Again, I encourage our listeners to check it out. Some really great resources for many different therapies, thinking about other alternative diagnoses and different medical conditions where insomnia really needs to be considered. And I really appreciate you writing this article. It's been a pleasure to talk with you today. 
Dr Peters-Mathews: It's my pleasure to share this information with folks, and I hope that you find it useful in your clinical practice or even your personal life as the need arises. 
Dr Grouse: Again today, I've been interviewing Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews about his article on insomnia. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Central sleep apnea is a complex and often underrecognized sleep-related breathing disorder that differs from obstructive sleep apnea by involving reduced respiratory drive rather than upper airway obstruction. In this episode, Dr. Ran Liu reviews the underlying mechanisms of central sleep apnea, including the role of ventilatory control instability, discusses its association with neurologic conditions such as stroke, multiple sclerosis, ALS, and myasthenic disorders, and highlights key considerations for diagnosis and management. Learn how emerging technologies, personalized treatment strategies, and advances in sleep medicine are improving outcomes for patients with this heterogeneous group of disorders.
In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD, FAAN, speaks with Ran R. Liu, MD, FRCPC, MSc, author of the article "Central Sleep Apnea" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue.
Dr. Monteith is the associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida.
Dr. Liu is an Adjunct Clinical Assistant Professor at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada, and an Adjunct Lecturer at the University of Toronto in Toronto, Canada.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Central Sleep Apnea
Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
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Host: @headacheMD
Guest: @SleepyNeuroDoc
 Full episode transcript available here
Dr Monteith: You may be familiar with obstructive sleep apnea, but central sleep apnea is often less understood and frequently underdiagnosed. In this podcast, we break down the key clinical pearls to sharpen your diagnostic reasoning, discuss why central sleep apnea matters, and to explore some of the fascinating advances transforming the field.
Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, editor-in-chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Richard Liu about his article on central sleep apnea. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Welcome to our podcast. How are you? 
Dr Liu: Good. Thank you, Dr. Monteith, for having me today. 
Dr Monteith: Please introduce yourself to our audience. 
Dr Liu: Hello, everybody. My name is Richard Liu. I am a sleep neurologist. I am working out of Toronto at both Sunnybrook Health Science Center and MedSleep. I did my residency at Queen's for neurology and my sleep medicine fellowship at Harvard University. 
Dr Monteith: Great. And what got you interested in sleep? 
Dr Liu: Thank you very much for asking. For me, sleep medicine is a field where essentially everything is connected. Certainly, impaired sleep can affect many other conditions, including many neurological conditions. And even within sleep medicine, when somebody has a sleep disorder, often the entire system is connected. So as an example, if you have insomnia and fragmented sleep and periodic limb movements of sleep, certainly these conditions can impact sleep apnea. And certainly, for today's topic of central sleep apnea, this is an extremely complicated disorder where it's a very in-depth integration between neurological and respiratory physiology, among other systems as well. 
Dr Monteith: So, I guess you're kind of like the cornerstone, sleep being the cornerstone of neurology. Everyone has to sleep. That's for sure. Great. So why don't we talk about what central sleep apnea is, and how prevalent is it as a collective group of disorders compared to obstructive sleep apnea? 
Dr Liu: So, one way to think about central sleep apnea is that this is a heterogeneous group of etiology. But the primary concept here for central sleep apnea is that there's a reduction in respiratory drive. This is in contrast to obstructive sleep apnea, where essentially this is some form of airway obstruction in the presence of relatively intact respiratory drive. And of course, there's mixed apneas where they may contain features of both. But of course, now we know that even obstructive sleep apnea, there's a certain degree of drive dependence somewhat blurring these distinctions. The overall prevalence of central sleep apnea is about five to ten percent of all patients with sleep- disorder breathing. And certainly, it could be higher in some neurological conditions, such as things like stroke, multiple sclerosis, and multisystem atrophy. 
Dr Monteith: Great. So certainly, it's out there. Why don't you tell us about the objectives of your article? 
Dr Liu: Absolutely. Thank you for asking. I think the main objective of this article is really to highlight that central sleep apnea is a complex syndrome resulting from a large group of heterogeneous etiologies. And of course, again, it could be associated with many neurological conditions. And really here, I want to highlight advancements, both medicine and technology, on both the side of diagnosis of central sleep apnea, as well as the multimodal targeted treatment. 
Dr Monteith: And what do you want our listeners to take away from this talk and certainly your article? What are the key essential points? 
Dr Liu: Thank you very much for asking. I think that one way of looking at central sleep apnea to etiologically divide this into both hypocapnic and hypercapnic central sleep apnea. And of course, loop gain being a major driver for a hypocapnic central sleep apnea, and that one can actually think about hypocapnic central sleep apnea beyond a phenotypic spectrum with obstructive sleep apnea, with many patients having overlapping features of both obstruction and central component. On the other hand, hypercapnic central sleep apnea, often also known as hyperventilation syndrome, can span etiology from chemoreflex dysfunction to a broad range of neuroanatomical localization, such as central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, neuromuscular junction, and muscle disorders. 
Dr Monteith: And what are some of the symptoms of central sleep apnea? Do any of them differ from obstructive sleep apnea? 
Dr Liu: Thank you for asking, that's an excellent question. So certainly, central sleep apnea symptoms can overlap with obstructive sleep apnea symptoms. And of course, given the large range of underlying etiology, often the CSA symptoms depend on the underlying etiology. There may be less snoring compared to obstructive sleep apnea patients, especially the hypocapnic CSA patients. Of course, these patients, like OSA, may have frequent awakenings, gasping and choking their sleep, and nocturia, and so on.These patients may have daytime sleepiness, insomnia-like symptoms, or they could be asymptomatic. Interestingly, the hypocarbnic central sleep apnea patients, they're a bit more prone to have the insomnia-like symptoms, whereas the hypercarbnic central sleep apnea patients, they tend to have a bit more of the daytime sleepiness and morning headaches. 
Dr Monteith: You spoke about some of the neurological disorders that might be associated with central sleep apnea, like stroke and multiple sclerosis. What about some of the more traditional risk factors associated with obstructive sleep apnea or conditions associated with it, like obesity and hypertension? Or does that just mix the picture? 
Dr Liu: There is many overlap between risk factors between obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea, and certainly one of the things that I highlight in this article is really that often it's not just black and white, that this could be a spectrum with overlapping disease between both conditions. So certainly, in our neurological world, stroke is the most common thing that may be associated with central sleep apnea. But overall, cardiovascular issues such as heart failure, atrial fibrillation, these things can also be associated with central sleep apnea. And again, from the neurological perspective, if we were to divide from hypocarbnic versus hypercarbnic central sleep apnea, by thinking about the hypercarbic central sleep apnea, again, this is where we're thinking about hypoventilation syndromes. You know, anything that can cause neuromuscular weakness, this is something that we should have a high alarm for, that potentially there may be a hypoventilation component. So, things like any myasthenic syndromes and ALS. 
Dr Monteith: Great. Why don't we also talk about the classification? When was the last time central sleep apnea's classification was updated, and what should we know about the classification? 
Dr Liu: The most recent classification for central sleep apnea is written in the International Classification of Sleep Disorders, third edition. In this edition, it's classified with six central sleep apnea syndromes. So, these are the CSA with Cheyne-Stoke breathing, CSA due to high altitude periodic breathing, primary CSA, CSA due to medication or substance, CSA due to medical disorder without Cheyne-Stoke breathing, and treatment-emergent central sleep apnea. These classifications more so describe the circumstance of when CSA occurs. A more etiological classification that we can consider would be classifying them by the underlying pathophysiology, which is dividing this from hypercarbnic central sleep apnea versus a hypocarbnic central sleep apnea. Certainly, both set of classification are discussed in this article. 
Dr Monteith: Yeah. You discussed at length, the major physiological factors that our audience is just going to have to read. I don't want them to hear this too much while they're driving or on the treadmill, cause its super high level. But why don't we just start with some very basic factors that we need to know about this circuitry? 
Dr Liu: Perhaps I can start with this concept of loop gain, which is the most important concept under hypocarbnic central sleep apnea. For any one of my colleagues who's listening to this, they're probably laughing right now cause they think that loop gain is my favorite word. So, loop gain is an engineering term referring to the sensitivity of a feedback loop. So, in the context of sleep medicine, this is an overly sensitive respiratory control to carbon dioxide and oxygen fluctuation. There are three components. The main one is controller gain. This is a chemosensitivity predominant to CO2. The second is plant gain, which is the lung's effectiveness for carbon dioxide excretion. And the last is what's called the mixing gain. This is circuitry delay from the time the signal travels from the pulmonary artery to the peripheral and central chemoreceptors. So conceptually, one may think, let's say something decreases your ventilation, so for example, apnea or hypopnea. With this, as you can imagine, when you stop breathing, your CO2 builds up, and this builds up according to the curve of the plant gain. And of course, this build of CO2 signal takes time to go from your lung to your chemoreceptor. That's your mixing gain. And of course, here it meets the overly sensitive chemoreceptors. This is your controller gain. As a result, this results in amplification of your ventilation to the initial respiratory disturbance. So, you have a overshoot of ventilation. All of a sudden, you're blowing out too much carbon dioxide, then you become hypocarbnic. At one point, if you blow out way too much carbon dioxide, your CO2 goes below what's called a PCO2 apneic threshold. After this, if your CO2's below, you essentially stop breathing. And of course, after that, you can imagine your CO2s are building up again. So, when this loop goes over and over, you generate what's called a chemoreflex-driven respiratory oscillation, where you create a crescendo, decrescendo-like flow pattern, which is underneath what we see in periodic breathing in central sleep apnea. 
Dr Monteith: So, without going into too much detail, what is the key way to target restoration of equilibrium? Are there anatomical targets, physiologic targets that we're trying to manipulate here?
Dr Liu: Again, thank you very much for that wonderful question. There's certainly many approaches that we could do to improve the stability of the system. Certainly, there are treatments for ventilation, either CPAP or in the case of hypocarbon central sleep apnea, things like adaptive servo ventilation. There is also medications that we can certainly discuss later that can double down the entire system for loop gain. Positional therapy can help for many of these patients. For the appropriate patient, improving their arousal threshold can actually reduce arousal-induced amplification of loop gain. Many of these patients, again, if appropriate, certainly weight loss may be helpful, and these are among many things that we can potentially do to improve the ventilatory stability of these patients. 
Dr Monteith: Okay, great. But let's also talk about the general overall approach to diagnosing, and much of it is by history, as you mentioned. There's also sometimes a need, as you say, to differentiate out how much is obstructive. So, what is the thinking process there when you're approaching a patient? 
Dr Liu: So perhaps I can start with in terms of the diagnostic modalities that we could use for this. So, the gold standard for diagnosis of central sleep apnea is still our polysonogram. The home sleep apnea test sometimes may be harder to distinguish between obstructive and central events. In addition, on a PSG, you have EEG. This allows you to assess for sleep quality and arousals, as well as the EMGs, which can help you pick up periodic limb movements of sleep. And of course, all of these things themselves can affect the central sleep apnea and can be a potential treatment factor. 
Dr Monteith: Before we get into treatment, can you just give us, like, the top five or six drugs or drug classes we need to look for so that, you know, we can discontinue or try something else for our patients that might be complicating their presentation? 
Dr Liu: Certainly medications, in some cases, can help central sleep apnea, but other cases can certainly be a precipitant of central sleep apnea. So, one thing to consider would be opioid medication. They can certainly cause very complicated central sleep apnea, something called ataxic breathing, where you have irregularity to the tidal volume and the rate of breathing. Other medications such as Oxybate, baclofen, valproic acid, gabapentin, all of which can certainly contribute to central sleep apnea. And of course, in the stroke world, something that we should always think about is that Tetagelor can also contribute to central sleep apnea. And outside of this, things like muscle relaxants, anesthetic agents can also be a contributor. 
Dr Monteith: Great. Now let's get into some of the treatment. 
Dr Liu: I like to divide treatment into targeting a hypercarbnic central sleep apnea and a hypocarbonic central sleep apnea. For hypocarbonic central sleep apnea, the first line is CPAP treatment. But for many patients, CPAP therapy is insufficient. There's also adaptive servo ventilation, which is an advanced device designed for hypocarbonic central sleep apnea. For hypercarbic central sleep apnea, again, first line is CPAP treatment, with more advanced devices being a bilevel therapy as well as volume-assured pressure support ventilation. There are also medications that can reduce loop gain, with the most researched one being acetazolamide. We can also reduce arousal thresholds, which could be appropriate for certain patients. And for certain patients, improving arousal threshold can be helpful as, especially in hypocarbic central sleep apnea, that arousals can amplify loop gain. Weight loss can be helpful for both hyper- and hypocarbonic central sleep apnea, and we have great new medication on the market for this. Other therapy can include supplemental oxygen that can be added to PAP devices, as well as phrenic nerve stimulation, positional therapy, as well as carbon dioxide modulation. 
Dr Monteith: Excellent. So, it sounds like there's a lot of opportunity to help patients. Now, what are you most excited about in terms of latest development for detection as well as for intervention? 
Dr Liu: Thank you very much. I'm actually excited about many things in sleep medicine. Perhaps the thing that I'm most excited about in detection in sleep medicine would be the wearable technologies. So, these technologies may use photoplethysmography to detect peripheral artertonometry. This is where we're measuring the pulsatile arterial volume signals as a surrogate of cardiac and respiratory function. And when paired, that was often desaturation. With these technologies, we can actually detect the staging, autonomic arousals, and HI. So of course, these technologies do not have flow, and they do not have EEG. But they're very powerful technology that allows us to do multi-night testing from home. And of course, understanding both the potential limitation of these technology in the context of patients can be very useful. In terms of treatment-wise, we're learning so much about the underlying contributing drivers of different forms of central sleep apnea. So again, this is highlighted in my article that many of these patients needs multimodal targeted treatment, both between either a PAP device in addition to other things such as medication, oxygen, positional therapy, and so on. 
Dr Monteith: Great. So, I mean, I think there's so much to this field. Your article is very extensive. Thank you very much for writing this. I know it may have taken a bit of time, and I appreciate you being on our podcast. 
Dr Liu: Thank you very much. 
Dr Monteith: Again today, I've been interviewing Dr. Richard Liu about his article on central sleep apnea. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today. 
Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.